For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11991 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:37 am Post subject:
linlithgowoil, how do you see an increasing human population dealing with depleted topsoil, species extinction, fisheries depletion, etc?
How will we continue to grow when the systems that support us are collapsing? _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Yes it can - please provide evidence that it cant - it appears to be continuing every day, year on year. Its continued since the dawn of man, and i dispute the idea that man was in some sort of equilibrium up until the 1800's.
The earth is finite is all the evidence one needs. When I say it can't continue, I mean we cannot. You can dispute the facts all you want, but you can't change them. The commons is finite which means there are limits. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Oct 12, 2004 Posts: 1647 Location: Davis, California
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:39 am Post subject:
linlithgowoil wrote:
Quote:
But this unbridled growth can’t continue
Yes it can - please provide evidence that it cant - it appears to be continuing every day, year on year. Its continued since the dawn of man, and i dispute the idea that man was in some sort of equilibrium up until the 1800's. Man was always advancing and growing, its simply accelerated since then. before the 1800's we had some pretty cool technology.
A switch to nuclear, coal, natural gas and renewables solves peak oil, though will leave us in a recession for a good decade as we make the switch over.
We'll all be driving electric or hydrogen cars in 15 years, and petrol engines will be a rarity as they'll not be required. oil demand will slump as a result, allowing us to produce our remaining oil reserves at a more modest pace - preserving them for 100's of years to come for use in petrochemicals.
What happens when Peak Uranium, Peak Hydrogen and Peak Living Space hits us? The simple fact is that everything on Earth is finite. Some resource may be so large that talks of limits are unfounded (calcium comes to mind), and many are scarce (platinum, silver, oil etc).
It's fun playing mind theories and word games, but real life is different. All those things you mentioned require rational thought (something which the market is not), excellent leadership (which is not the case), freedom (being curtailed daily), a willingness to sacrifice the now for the later (not the case in America at least) and general stability and peace (doesn't look like it). _________________ Joseph Stalin "It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. "
We'll all be driving electric or hydrogen cars in 15 years, and petrol engines will be a rarity as they'll not be required. oil demand will slump as a result, allowing us to produce our remaining oil reserves at a more modest pace - preserving them for 100's of years to come for use in petrochemicals.
We will all be eating human burgers and thermally depolymerizing the dead for the SUV. Since lin lives in Scotland she should know the fine tradition of human cannibalism that survived that land till very recently (a millenium ago). That's why I keep my Scottish friends around ... they might know some cool recipes of (human) baby soup. _________________ "Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
excellent write up. Im not sure what linthigo is talking about when he says it is increasing year after year? Is this more PC double speak? Trying to confuse us more. Ill have none of it. .
http://www.numbersusa.com/index
Im not sure 2.2 million acres a year loss of prime land is more and more?
or inflation. In this fantasy land the price of goods should have stayed at pre 1900 levels. Hell organic produce is even getting more expensive even when u get it straight from the farm. so these fertility drug wack jobs better have huge salaries. theya re gonna need it soon enough. LOL. as my OU anthropology professor friend says: "americans are in for some reality". Well keep it going as the parts keep flying off.
Joined: Dec 20, 2004 Posts: 890 Location: Scotland
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject:
i dont get why some of you people seem to think we are in 'the end days' and we'll all be eating each other soon. you might as well all wear a board with the end is nigh written on it.
i can guarantee that in 20 years from now, this site will still be here, and people will still be arguing about how peak oil was about to bring the whole world to its knees. except it will never happen.
yes, there are finite limits to everything, but with technology you can overcome a lot of limits. we may soon have technology that allows us to create resources out of, quite literally, 'nothing'. nanotech would allow us to manipulate atoms and create water and hydrocarbons out of any old crap.
my country is actually underpopulated. we could easily support a lot more people.
i really do think its futile to rail against reproduction though. you are angry about the very thing that allowed you to exist and enter posts on here - that is very amusing to me - dont you guys see the irony and stupidity there?
i really do think its futile to rail against reproduction though. you are angry about the very thing that allowed you to exist and enter posts on here - that is very amusing to me - dont you guys see the irony and stupidity there?
Doesn't over-reproduction allow people to go on starving in areas where they are unable to independently provide for themselves? Just because you can make babies doesn't mean you should. What I find 'ironic and stupid' is a parent having a child they cannot provide for.
yes, there are finite limits to everything, but with technology you can overcome a lot of limits. we may soon have technology that allows us to create resources out of, quite literally, 'nothing'.
You go to front of the "first to go" list. Sometimes I thinking "culling the herd" will be easy.
Obvious humor aside, technology is what caused us to exceed our limits so soon. Didn't you read the Tragedy of the Commons? There are no techno-fixes for this. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
i dont get why some of you people seem to think we are in 'the end days' and we'll all be eating each other soon. you might as well all wear a board with the end is nigh written on it.
i can guarantee that in 20 years from now, this site will still be here, and people will still be arguing about how peak oil was about to bring the whole world to its knees. except it will never happen.
yes, there are finite limits to everything, but with technology you can overcome a lot of limits. we may soon have technology that allows us to create resources out of, quite literally, 'nothing'. nanotech would allow us to manipulate atoms and create water and hydrocarbons out of any old crap.
my country is actually underpopulated. we could easily support a lot more people.
i really do think its futile to rail against reproduction though. you are angry about the very thing that allowed you to exist and enter posts on here - that is very amusing to me - dont you guys see the irony and stupidity there?
life is a gift and a miracle.
No. I will never except that cop out. I will never except being enslaved by "technology". And I will never prefer pavement and landfills for clean fresh water, rich soil, good organic food, and clean air. and i will never breed irresponsibly and spread irresponsiible plaque. Over what is becoming the only choice.
GMO, crowded death pits, ignorance, wilderness extinction, scarce game, etc..
the technology way will and is already becoming be a soylent green scenario. And no ive never believed in end of days Bullshit Play of PC words. And also times have changed the situation we are in has no pertinence to "we are a product of breeding". My mother had one child, me. Different time and place. The problems have to do with Greed. More money more bodies on the heap. So I find absolutely no stupidity with overbreeding management. its so Fark up now that common sense is stupidity and parasitic human breeding behavior is intelligent. Omfg. Now That is END OF DAYS".
Joined: Dec 20, 2004 Posts: 890 Location: Scotland
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:42 am Post subject:
Quote:
What I find 'ironic and stupid' is a parent having a child they cannot provide for
Every parent living in an affluent western country can provide for their child. You are seriously suggesting someone living in the UK or USA cant provide for a child? Dont make me laugh.
Quote:
No. I will never except that cop out. I will never except being enslaved by "technology
Ooohhh.. that is sooo good. You actually typed that on a piece of advanced computer technology, do you realise the irony there? I can see you now - in your modern house surrounded by technology, tv's, radios, appliances and heated and powered by a technological marvel - a national grid system, sitting there saying 'I Hate technology!' whilst popping a ready meal in the microwave and flipping your kettle on to make some coffee! Please, feel free to live under a bush technology free! I just dont think you've thought your position out on technology very well. You either have technology or you dont. You cant just stop somewhere in the middle and say 'that tech is good, but no further'. Its all the way or nothing.
Quote:
You go to front of the "first to go" list. Sometimes I thinking "culling the herd" will be easy.
Obvious humor aside, technology is what caused us to exceed our limits so soon. Didn't you read the Tragedy of the Commons? There are no techno-fixes for this
You obviously have something against the human race if you refer to it as a herd and think it needs to be culled. I suppose you think you should be the guy chosing who dies then eh? And obviously you wouldn't be one of the unlucky ones who have to die .... thought so.
How do you know there are no techno fixes for this? You got a crystal ball there? Going on thousands of years of human progress, I would say its a pretty good bet to say we'll keep advancing in general, but with small blips on the way. Peak oil is a blip which will cause a worldwide recession for a decade. In that period, public works programs and new tech will allow us to swich away from oil for transport purposes and to save it for important things such as medicines and fertilizers.
I do find it absolutely hilarious how people that blame everything on technology use pieces of technology every day and depend on them for their lives. It is so funny. Montequest - i presume you live in some sort of wig wam and you somehow managed to telepathically connect to the internet through a foil radar placed on your head? How could you be posting here? Do you have a pc made out of wood and clay?
Every parent living in an affluent western country can provide for their child. You are seriously suggesting someone living in the UK or USA cant provide for a child? Dont make me laugh.
A look at the United States reveals a wide gap between the goal of universal access to adequate nutrition, and the reality of hunger that plagues millions in this country alone. The number of hungry people in the United States is greater now than it was when international leaders set hunger-cutting goals at the 1996 World Food Summit. The pledges by United States government leaders to cut the number of Americans living in hunger-from 30.4 million to 15.2 million by 2010- are lagging behind. An estimated 35 million Americans are food insecure with food insecurity and the necessity of food stamps being experienced by at least 4 in 10 Americans between the ages of 20 and 65. That's 50% of Americans!
Washington, DC --- December 18, 2003 --- The U.S. Conference of Mayors today released their annual survey of hunger and homelessness in America’s cities. As the overall economy remained weak, requests for emergency food assistance increased by an average of 17 percent over the past year, and requests for emergency shelter assistance increased by an average of 13 percent in the 25 cities surveyed.
source
You have now been put on my ignore list Linlithgowil, the only other person that had that honour was DriveElectric who has been kicked. _________________ Hello, my name is Rax. I live in the Amazon jungle with a bunch of women. We are super eco feminists and our favourite passtimes are dangling men by their ankles and discussing peak oil. - apparently
Joined: Apr 06, 2004 Posts: 257 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:57 am Post subject:
MonteQuest wrote:
Yes, and this causes problems. As the population gets older, there are not enough workers to support the aging population. And without a growing population, you cannot have economic growth.
...and without growing energy supplies you cannot have economic growth. Isn't that exactly what you would like to achieve? Less economic growth = less consumption of resources = more breathing room for mother nature.
Potential benefits of an aging population:
Less demand for resources for schools, nurseries, kindergartens, etc.
Fewer young people will mean less intense competition for good jobs.
Lack of "youthful human resources" will mean that more older people will be in demand for jobs that they are currently being shunted out of because of age discrimination.
If an aging population caused a real crisis in economics, isn't that a good thing... perhaps a rethink of the ponzi scheme that is operating now?
Besides if you believe your own rhetoric MonteQuest, surely an aging population wouldn't eventuate because of peak oil increasing death rates? _________________ Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. - Aldous Huxley
Joined: Dec 20, 2004 Posts: 890 Location: Scotland
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:58 am Post subject:
Quote:
You have now been put on my ignore list Linlithgowil, the only other person that had that honour was DriveElectric who has been kicked.
What in God's name are you on about? You've ignored me because i disagree with your viewpoint, and are suggesting that i should be kicked for not toeing the 'doomer party line'?
I am putting forward an alternative viewpoint which you disagree with, and you cant handle it?
I said that your average person in the UK or USA or other wealthy countries can afford to provide for their children. You disagree with this? Well, i say you are wrong - dead wrong. The UK and USA is having an obesity epedemic at the moment - we are awash in calorie rich foods. The poorest people are also usually the fattest.
I'm on a slightly above average income and could probably afford to provide for much more children than i have now (i have 2). I just wouldnt have any money left over for luxuries.
You really need to get a grip of yourself if you have to ignore people who you dont agree with. That is hands in the ears playground stuff.
Yes, and this causes problems. As the population gets older, there are not enough workers to support the aging population. And without a growing population, you cannot have economic growth.
...and without growing energy supplies you cannot have economic growth. Isn't that exactly what you would like to achieve? Less economic growth = less consumption of resources = more breathing room for mother nature.
Potential benefits of an aging population:
Less demand for resources for schools, nurseries, kindergartens, etc.
Fewer young people will mean less intense competition for good jobs.
Lack of "youthful human resources" will mean that more older people will be in demand for jobs that they are currently being shunted out of because of age discrimination.
If an aging population caused a real crisis in economics, isn't that a good thing... perhaps a rethink of the ponzi scheme that is operating now?
Besides if you believe your own rhetoric MonteQuest, surely an aging population wouldn't eventuate because of peak oil increasing death rates?
Does everyone miss the Big Picture? The point I was making is that reducing the birth rate alone does not fully address population issues. Nature weeds from both ends, and we must also.
Must we let our denial rule , rather than our logic? _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
You have now been put on my ignore list Linlithgowil, the only other person that had that honour was DriveElectric who has been kicked.
What in God's name are you on about? You've ignored me because i disagree with your viewpoint, and are suggesting that i should be kicked for not toeing the 'doomer party line'?
I am putting forward an alternative viewpoint which you disagree with, and you cant handle it?
I said that your average person in the UK or USA or other wealthy countries can afford to provide for their children. You disagree with this? Well, i say you are wrong - dead wrong. The UK and USA is having an obesity epedemic at the moment - we are awash in calorie rich foods. The poorest people are also usually the fattest.
I'm on a slightly above average income and could probably afford to provide for much more children than i have now (i have 2). I just wouldnt have any money left over for luxuries.
You really need to get a grip of yourself if you have to ignore people who you dont agree with. That is hands in the ears playground stuff.
Lin decides to have one more kid cause she can afford it => Increase in Lin's household energy consumption => increase in the consumption of fossil fuels => more CO2 in the atmosphere => melting of polar ice => Gulf Stream Shuts down (scenarion published in Science 9 January 2004; 303: 176-177 [DOI: 10.1126/science.1094329] ) =>Northern Europe and Scotland covered in 1/2 mile of ice => destruction of agriculture => no food => Lin's kids are eaten by Lin, or eat each other or all of them are eaten by strangers (Ukraine famine in 1940s plenty of evidence).
I surely hope Lin that whoever eats your children is not sadistic and eats you first before you see your own children eaten raped or turtured prior to their being BBQed (people are gonna be pissed that they lack their reality shows and will want to "play" with their food). If you have a cute daughter or son she or he might be kept for sex or energy slave or both.
Have a nice day and go consume and breed (the penultimate consumption).... you have condemned your children to death _________________ "Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
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