Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
Hydrogen is explosive, not implosive. I'm pretty sure standard ICE's have been run on hydrogen with little modification. _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
I received my Popular Science magazine recently and it featured a hydrogen powered aircraft on the cover. In the magazine was a full page ad for what to me is the unified field theory of mileage elixirs and whirligigs. If you carefully choose amongst the advertisers one can have their own Area 51 in a steel out building, wield a "willie" that is capable of splitting firewood, and get 100 MPG to boot.
HHO kits, chemical fuel additives, ECC add on module,
and fuel magnets with radiator heat input all in a medley
of mileage saving frenzy.
In the past, the story almost always included a bit about
how the government or Detroit, or the oil companies, tried
to get to the inventor and squash him.
What ever happened to common sense?
You are on the internet right now. You can find out how to make bombs and drugs and all sorts of things and it is damn near impossible for anyone to suppress the information. There are many independent and absolutely brilliant people on the planet, and they are linked by the internet and other communication methods. If this worked there would be millions of DIY people all over it and the OEM
automotive people would simply have to include it on each vehicle, even if the oil guys and the car guys were made sick by the thought.
I see myriad ads for revolutionary hair growth technology but yet many of the richest men and movie stars have obvious baldness or simply wear wigs. Why?
I see myriad ads for things to make the male unit larger, longer, more rigid, and able to snap to attention like a Marine recruit. Either this stuff ain't working or the customers are dying of happiness and taking the referral business to the grave.
I have seen the magnets and water powered car routine dozens of times now and have not ever seen any of the technology make it into a production car. The exception is ECC upgrades for performance or mileage tweaks to the normalized setpoints in the OEM software of the automobile.
The saddest thought for me, is that of one of these water powered car guys, standing in front of the urinal, and having to watch all of that raw horsepower go down the drain.
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Newbie Question HHO Gas
I am reading a lot about Alt energy and fuels...the one thing that I
have gotten out of most of the negative stuff that I have read is that
you can't get free energy because the "cost" of making the energy
would be counter productive. I get that, I understand that you will
never (and I use that term loosely as not to offend, as I am, in the
great scope of things, relatively uninformed) be able to make more
energy that it takes to make it. However it seems to (uninformed) me,
that if you can increase your gas mileage by even 30% by a simple
mixture of water and baking soda, then why would you not do it? Not
forgetting that, the long term effects can't be noted, because no one
has ran one of these devices for a length of time that can be
considered "long term".
I have a friend who has hooked up one of these HHO on demand devices
onto his S10 pickup truck. It is a 95 model and he isn't going to have
to worry about the O2 sensors. His setup is as follows (and I am sure
you have read about this setup a few times at least).
He has a 2 glass jars secured under his hood attached via a hose to
equalize the pressure and get the gas created from both jars into the
breather of his truck.
The content of each jar is 3 pints of water and 2 tbls of baking
soda.
He has 2 wires that run in a coil down a core of Plexiglas and the
wires do not close the circuit (or I should say not intended to, I
watched him blow a fuse last night. But I will get back to that)
So through electrolysis he is creating HHO (if the process he is using
or the gas that is being created is incorrect please let me know). The
12V current is coming from his battery but he is running it from the
windshield washer fluid sprayer so it won't continue to run when the
car is turned off (and this is the fuse that he blew. He did however
have a couple spares, guess via trial and error he knew that he should
probably invest in some spares). He then has a hose that runs from the
two jars into the breather of his truck. When the valves open up to
let the air into the piston chamber for the gas, when ignited, to have
something to burn, instead of Oxygen you get Hydrogen and Oxygen.
He is saying that the S10 now gets 62 miles to the gallon, and he just
put it on a newer Yukon (I don't know what year but he bought it used
3 years ago for what ever that is worth.). He was getting 14 MPG and
now is getting 29 MPG. So if the battery is being charged by the
alternator, and the battery is creating the HHO gas and you can
increase your MPG by 30-50% isn't it worth it?
Of course there are obvious flaws in the thinking. Unknown long-term
effects, like having to buy a new engine and the trouble, timing, and
cost of hooking all the stuff up.
However even if you drain your battery, while creating the gas, in
half the time it is supposed to last, and end up having to buy a new
one, the money you save on gas would greatly cover the cost of a new
battery. For example, Lets say I pay 40 dollars per week to fill up my
car and I get 250 miles to a tank. If I get an increase of 40 %, then
I would have saved the money to buy a new battery.
So am I wrong in thinking that energy gained in form of HHO gas by 12V
Battery < energy used to create the gas + energy used to recharge the
battery from alternator + energy expelled burning the gas = 20-50%
increase in gas mileage is worth it?
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
Rogue, in short each conversion of energy LOSES more energy. HHO is not magic pixie farts - just low density fuel. Your friend is not being accurate about his claimed increase in mileage or he is violating the laws of thermodynamics. As the battery is depleted producing the gas, the alternator kicks on thus putting more load on the engine. That primary load uses more fuel than is contained in the gas you generate.
I suggest a more concise examination will reveal that his gains... Aren't real...
-G _________________ All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!
Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
I've been reading up on all the arguments for and against these "HHO on-demand" systems for about six months now, and I'm not swayed either way. The majority of the "pro" individuals have little to no background in science, electronics or automobile mechanics and honestly most of their arguments come from "a friend of the friend". The majority of the "con" individuals gernally have a strong grasp on science and dismiss it outright based on theory, however, like the pros, have never even tinkered with it.
I'm willing to be a guinea pig for this. Two days ago I purchased a 1987 Mercury Cougar XR-7 that is in pretty decent condition, 146k miles. Sofar with three days and roughly 200 miles of travel (mostly highway) I'm getting an average of 17.9 MPG. This seems a suitable enough candidate car to use for this test.
I'm not willing to put insane amounts of money into this, but I have seen several of these kits for under $300, and that seems reasonable enough. Or if somebody has already bought one of these kits or downloaded instructions on building your own, but haven't had the guts/knowledge/energy to do so, I'll gladly take that too and repay you for your efforts if it works. If this happens to blow up my car, it won't be a loss for me (unless, of course, I'm killed in the process).
As I go along, I'll answer whatever questions I can and run whatever tests I'm capable of (or find a way to get some if I don't know myself). If anybody is interested in helping me with this, feel free to contact me or ask here on the message board.
Joined: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 2324 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
Why are there 20 people with one (1) post commenting in this very thread? _________________ Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
Well, for me, it is because I just found this site yesterday. It's the only site which I've seen a decent amount of quality posting on regarding this subject (that is, it's been going on for quite awhile now, and it hasn't broken down into a flame war! ). It inspired me to register an account and make a post, since I feel froggy enough to leap into this, and it seems like a decent enough community that will provide both some food for thought and quality feedback.
Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
As this is my first post, I know I will be under a bit of scrutiny. I am not a chemist, nor a physisist. I am but a lowly ER nurse with no more than a college degree in nursing, but this field does make one a trained observer.
I have read many sites on using HHO, or whatever the prefered verbage is. I have also come across a site where a researcher has supposedly made a tank that stores hydrogen in a "metal matrix" that bonds with hydrogen weakly and is released through heat that breaks the bond thus releasing the hydrogen.
HHO seems like a workable technology to me. I think the arguments and bantering back and forth are muddying the waters (no pun intended). The HHO gas can be produced. The gas can burn. These are the facts. The rest is just fluff. Whether the gas can be made in sufficient quantities to burn as just the primary fuel is not in question now. This is still a few years off now. Using the kinetic energy of the engine to produce electricity, and using a beefed up alternator concevably can produce enough HHO gas in an on demand process to supplement the energy produced to increase your MPG while driving. WOW! isn't that a profound concept? Who cares if there is a danger in storing the gas? Who cares if you can't produce enough HHO to run a car for free? The concept in the here and now is that the HHO gas can give you more miles per tank of Petro-gas by supplementing it with a fuel made from WATER! Saving $$$ and polluting less per gallon of petro-gas is the BIG benefit! The rest will come. The information here is being supressed by the big oil corporations. The missinformation regurgitated by the media from the oil corp's is hampering the efforts of those wanting to benifit mankind. It is the corporate greed that drives this.
More fuel efficient cars were in the works way back in the 1970's as a result of the fuel embargos of the time. Former Presedent Carter was attempting to make it law that cars were to get 30, 40 or more MPG way back then! Even the big ol' caddys were going to get 30+MPG. Then Regan came in a deregulated it all. Cars went back to plodding along without any real increase until the hurricane Katrina. Fuel prices went up as a result. I guess there hadn't been a hurricane in the Gulf before! Then there was another big storm again the following year! Gas prices went up again! Exxon/Mobile reported record profits! WTF??? I'll stop any further rants. But, as Fox Mulder would say, "The truth is out there!"
Joined: Mar 07, 2007 Posts: 228 Location: Holland, United Kingdom (of the seven Netherlands)
Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
SteveinThurmont wrote:
HHO seems like a workable technology to me. I think the arguments and bantering back and forth are muddying the waters (no pun intended). The HHO gas can be produced. The gas can burn. These are the facts. The rest is just fluff. Whether the gas can be made in sufficient quantities to burn as just the primary fuel is not in question now. This is still a few years off now. Using the kinetic energy of the engine to produce electricity, and using a beefed up alternator concevably can produce enough HHO gas in an on demand process to supplement the energy produced to increase your MPG while driving. WOW! isn't that a profound concept?
The technology works. It just doesn’t improve mileage.
The gas can be produced and it can burn. Fact is that it takes more energy to produce the gas than you can usefully apply again when it burns. Those are the laws of nature.
The kinetic energy is taken from your engine. Kinetic energy is the energy you could have used to propel your car. Now you convert it (with a loss) to electricity and then another conversion (with losses) to ‘HHO’ gas. That gas is then burnt and in the engine converted to kinetic energy.
It cannot be made in sufficient quantities to burn as just the primary fuel because the engine produces less energy than it takes to produce the HHO gas needed.
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
Just jumped on the HHO scene. I've converted my '80 Mercedes Benz diesel to run on a two tank waste veggie oil system. Always like to tinker with car/trks. In 1976 I replaced the 1969 Chevy 350ci gasser with a Perkins 6 cylinder 354 ci/5 speed manual/an over/under over drive. I think I was one of the first in Phx to put a diesel in a pickup. Been running great since. Now I'm going to convert it to burn veggie oil also. Going to try the HHO with my other MB gassers - '99 E320, '87 MB SDL, and MY '92 500SL. For those diesel guys, I'd suggest looking into the WVO scene. The "fuel" is free. Can't tell you how nice it is to pass up all those Southern CA gas stations. When I do have to purchase diesel, I put in 5 gals which last me almost a month! There a many "conversion kits" out there - very few good ones and lots of JUNK.
Perkins6354
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
Just jumped on the HHO scene. I've converted my '80 Mercedes Benz diesel to run on a two tank waste veggie oil system. Always like to tinker with car/trks. In 1976 I replaced the 1969 Chevy 350ci gasser with a Perkins 6 cylinder 354 ci/5 speed manual/an over/under over drive. I think I was one of the first in Phx to put a diesel in a pickup. Been running great since. Now I'm going to convert it to burn veggie oil also. Going to try the HHO with my other MB gassers - '99 E320, '87 MB SDL, and MY '92 500SL. For those diesel guys, I'd suggest looking into the WVO scene. The "fuel" is free. Can't tell you how nice it is to pass up all those Southern CA gas stations. When I do have to purchase diesel, I put in 5 gals which last me almost a month! There a many "conversion kits" out there - very few good ones and lots of JUNK.
Perkins6354
Joined: Aug 15, 2006 Posts: 190 Location: 'bout 15 miles from EU's eastern border (thankfully on the inside)
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
perkins6354 wrote:
I've converted my '80 Mercedes Benz diesel to run on a two tank waste veggie oil system.
I hope to do the same with a '95-'97 Merc, 2.2 turbodiesel. I'll prolly cough up the dough and go for the Elsbett conversion kit. They seem like the real deal.
After that, i'm prolly starting an electric conversion.
Ontopic, HHO is bunk, like any other energy sink . Converting water into water
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
To kamnet, rogueit, and all the others that are looking into this technology. As skeptik and Gerben point out, there is a high amount of energy needed to make this HHO gas. Logic may dictate that the energy yield is less than the required energy to make the gas in the first place. But, as far as I can tell, the lot of us are not experts in any of the sciences that could answer the questions undoubtedly. There would need to be alot of research needed, and this won't happen because it will never be alowed by the big oil corporations if there is any savings for us peons. I have read the accounts of a guy I can't remember the name of in the '70s that went to court, and I believe all the way to the Supreme Court, after he sold his idea to an auto manufaturer. He ended up being sued and fined for quite a sum. I'm not sure if it is true, but his death that was ruled a natural death, has some people wondering if there is more to the story. I wish I had more expendable money so I could truly get to the bottom of all this. I have to wonder if there is enough money to be made in a scam to justify the shear volume of the sites that promote the ideas of HHO. Just check out the site found by searching for Aquygen or PreIgnition Catalytic Converter. These sites have been up for a while now. Don't most, if not all scams just stay up for a short time, just to disapear into oblivian once they have scammed you of your money? PICC has been there, I believe for more than a year. And they actually respond to you rather quickly for your questions. Quite unusual if you ask me for a scam site! I'm willing to continue my looking and probing to see this through. I won't be easily dissuaded by a few nay-sayers with psudo-technobabble. Maybe I'm wrong. But the jury is still out. And to Mr. (Ms.?) Gerben, thanks for your input. I only wish some of these forums were live-face to face conversations. That could be fun!
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas
Hey lys3rgo and perkins6354, I am buying a Golden Fuel Systems duel tank kit this Monday. I will also purchase a filtration system from an enterprise, fryer2fuel. If I find myself traveling alot, I may get Golden Fuel Systems portable filtration set up. I will be happy to put out $ for a known fuel savings! WVO is GOOD! HHO is still a question for me. I have been blending during the warmer months. Not as good in the long term, so thus the conversion. Maybe a good new topic! Here's to $0.20/gal instead of $4.00+/gal for diesel! More later. By the way, anyone know about how I can avoid issues of paying road tax to keep the feds from breathing down my neck, should it come to that?
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). It inspired me to register an account and make a post, since I feel froggy enough to leap into this, and it seems like a decent enough community that will provide both some food for thought and quality feedback.
. Converting water into water 
