Klein/Brown's/HHO Gas

RMForbes · Tar Sands Joined: May 05, 2008 Posts: 39

Just try it, seven plates with 1/8th inch rubber washers between each plate, positive pole to center plate, negative pole to both outside plates. I used an old 6amp battery charger to test using just tap water and steady supply of gas was produced. When small amount of baking soda was added gas was produced so fast that water seemed to boil but temp of water was unchanged.

RMForbes · Tar Sands Joined: May 05, 2008 Posts: 39

gnm -- Just a few glaring errors in your argument

Commercial hydrogen generators are producing nearly pure hydrogen --- not HHO gas. They sacrifice volume for purity. They are in no way close to being the same thing.

Air/Fuel mix total volume of the engine stays the same with or without HHO gas added to the intake. What does change is the percentage of reactive elements. When adding HHO gas to the intake it adds an increase of fuel to the system. How much HHO gas in proportion to atomized gasoline would be the proper way calculate gain/loss of energy in the system.

The BTU rating of hydrogen is very low because it burns very poorly at normal sea level pressures. But compress it and watch out, it's very explosive. Do this experiment, hold a flame over the bubbles coming off the HHO generator, it will spit and pop a bit but will not ignite and burn, then fill a normal balloon with HHO and ignite it and see the difference. For your safety do not attempt in a confined area, it's very dangerous.

Being accused of spreading manure in such a sarcastic manner just creates lack of respect for your views, it adds no value to this very important issue. Please try to open your mind just a little. You seem to have a scientific background which is an important asset to this string. We need to have your views heard so that we can explore real value of this technology.

RMForbes · Tar Sands Joined: May 05, 2008 Posts: 39

gnm -- Just a few glaring errors in your argument

Commercial hydrogen generators are producing nearly pure hydrogen --- not HHO gas. They sacrifice volume for purity. They are in no way close to being the same thing.

Air/Fuel mix total volume of the engine stays the same with or without HHO gas added to the intake. What does change is the percentage of reactive elements. When adding HHO gas to the intake it adds an increase of fuel to the system. How much HHO gas in proportion to atomized gasoline would be the proper way calculate gain/loss of energy in the system.

The BTU rating of hydrogen is very low because it burns very poorly at normal sea level pressures. But compress it and watch out, it's very explosive. Do this experiment, hold a flame over the bubbles coming off the HHO generator, it will spit and pop a bit but will not ignite and burn, then fill a normal balloon with HHO and ignite it and see the difference. For your safety do not attempt in a confined area, it's very dangerous.

Being accused of spreading manure in such a sarcastic manner just creates lack of respect for your views, it adds no value to this very important issue. Please try to open your mind just a little. You seem to have a scientific background which is an important asset to this string. We need to have your views heard so that we can explore real value of this technology.

Gerben · Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

RMForbes · Tar Sands Joined: May 05, 2008 Posts: 39

I agree, watts is a unit of work, but the potential energy of HHO must not be just the stored power used in the separation process. There has to be something else going on here.

Hydrogen is the most chemically reactive element in nature. Both hydrogen and oxygen not only react with each other but are also reacting with the components of gasoline in the combustion chamber. I am not suggesting that adding HHO creates an over unity system, but instead there are elements at work here that are not being accounted for in your model. I am not sure what is really going on, my college physics and chemistry were over 30 years ago. All I know is my car is running stronger and getting better mileage with the unit installed. This may even be a result of the added moisture carried to the combustion chamber by the HHO gas. I know that WWII era fighters used water injected directly into the combustion chamber to give a boost in performance. I was hoping that someone with a scientific background could tell me why it works so well and why it is not being used more widely.

Commercial Hydrogen generators separate the anode and cathode by several inches, use distilled water with no catalyst. By design that requires a large amount of energy to separate H2 from O2. No they are not more efficient at producing a volume of gas than a simple unit that where the charged plates are less than one half inch apart and are separated by two uncharged plates in an electrolyte bath. If you do not want to do the experiment yourself, there are several videos on U-tube that will illustrate this for you.

DET · Coal Joined: May 11, 2008 Posts: 2

I think the answer to power electrolysis of water for hydrogen production for vehicle power could be a regenerative (motor/generator @ each wheel) hybrid (gas/electric) vehicle with the addition of solar and thermoelectric catalyst/exhaust system to charge the batteries. These systems are available now. Most of the energy provided to an internal combustion engine is lost as heat through the exhaust,which a portion can be recovered with a thermoelectric exhaust system. Solar technology used by the international space station,check this link
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast13nov_1.htm The result of this carefully managed process is 110 kW of power available for all uses," McKissock says. "After life support, battery charging, and other power management uses [take their share], 46 kW of continuous electric power are left over for research work and science experiments. That's enough to run a small village of 50 to 55 houses." This space solar technology is over seven years old and should be able to be scaled down to fit the exterior of vehicles & in combo provide enough power to produce H from H2O. There are fuel cell and other technologies which can also reduce oil dependence, as volume increases prices will fall.

WatchfulEye · Tar Sands Joined: Jun 07, 2007 Posts: 51

It's well known that adding small amounts of hydrogen to the air/fuel mix in a gasoline engine improves combustion slightly.

The benefit is only marginal, as modern gas engines burn the fuel exceptionally well. The problem is getting a suitable source of hydrogen which is practical, convenient and efficient enough.

Several of the major auto makers have settled on catalytic cracking of gas to produce hydrogen as the technology that they are pursuing most seriously. There are several advantages to this approach:
1. Cracking gas to hydrogen is much more efficient that using electrolysis which has been supplied by mechanical energy from the motor.
2. No need for regular filling with pure water/soda/acid, etc. Just need to fill with gas like any other car.
3. Gas is of certified purity and quality. Electrolysers require high purity water, or suffer from build up of precipitates.

None of the manufacturers actually have a commercially ready system. Only time will tell, whether any of them actually launch their technology to market. Probably the most important thing is that it actually makes a demonstrable improvement to fuel consumption.

Washburn · Coal Joined: May 13, 2008 Posts: 4

Running a car on water. No.
Adding a hydrogen generator and getting better gas mileage.

ABSOLUTELY! I'm not selling anything but I have done the research.
A company in Canada is selling a commercial system for diesel trucks that it claims is already on hundreds of fleet vehicles.

The reason it works can be found here for those looking for proof.
http://www.chechfi.ca/pdfs/hydrogen_injection.pdf
The summary is that the HHO stimulates complete combustion and improves thermal efficiency. The gain in thermal efficiency is greater than the power used by the electrolysis unit.
It makes any IEC more efficient. You can make it yourself.
My neighbor has built (2) of these for his cars and they WORK.
It should be viewed as a fuel additive then maybe we can get beyond some of these pointless discussions and work on ways to put it to better use.

gnm · Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

Watchful Eye is correct - Adding H2 is known and well studied as to it potential for improving combustion. It has been dismissed as insignificant except under rare engine operating conditions which would not be consistent with a vehicle.

Cracking fuel using waste heat from the exhaust seems a more likely route for improvement.

I don't need to run over the arguments with RMForbes any since the improvements he is claiming run askew of conservation of energy and essentially the second law of thermodynamics. In other words ITS IMPOSSIBLE.

-G
_________________
All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!

gnm · Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

gnm · Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

perf · Coal Joined: May 13, 2008 Posts: 17

this guy gnm is a real gem.

never bothered to try it, just screaming insults and nay-saying.

expert my arse.

study the posts here and see what you see.

a) "experts" who have never tried this experiment, and likely never will. but claim knowledge far above and beyond those who are willing to actually put in the leg work.

b) people who are curious to try, but are scared off by know it alls .

c) people who have some balls and just do it anyway and discover that it works. why? maybe gnm can figure it out. when he can get it through his head that it actually works.

d) and conspicuously absent.... people who have tried it and found that it does NOT work.

hmmm. funny that everyone who has actually done the experiment validates it.

and the people who have no actual real world experience are so loudly decrying it.

funny how the people who decry something most are generally exactly that which they decry.

example.... the military guy who "hates faggots" so bad he just wants to kill 'em.

and of course that guy is the most homosexual dude on the block. and hates himself for it. crying shame.

similarly, someone here yelling what an ignorant fool everyone else is.

ever wonder who has an issue with their own ignorant foolishness?

Laughing

by the way, i just put a similar system into a chevy s-10 and got 25% fuel efficiency increase. blew the fuse because i was drawing too much power when it got warm.

but that means i only had the system on for maybe half the drive. probably less. which means that when i put in another jar to bring the amperage draw down a bit i'll likley get an even better increase.

we're trying to max out the draw at about 15 amps. however if you re-wound your alternator you could push it up considerably.

also it's a good idea to trick your computer to lean back the fuel in the mix so less gas and more of whatever the hell gas is being made gets burned.

oh, and it burns. indeed. fill a baloon with it and watch what happens when you light it.

stand back though for god's sake.

and another note, i'm getting about a liter per minute drawing about 15 amps. still tweaking it a bit to max out what the alternator can spare and getting the most gas per amp.

then thinking about buying an old truck and running a few alternators on one belt.

and man, the drag the alternator puts on the engine is negligible. explain how the overall efficiency of the car improves, and the emissions improve, the observable power improves, and yet this system is somehow decreasing the efficiency of your engine?

when clearly experimentation proves otherwise?

how is this system bogging down your engine in such a terribly inefficient way when the real world efficiency of the system is clearly improving?

just like the turbo charger. which is an excellent analogy.

gnm · Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

You are apparently an idiot.

Do you think that basic scientific principles are just bunko?

The system described violates basic scientific law. I doesn't have to be tested. It CAN'T WORK AS DESCRIBED!

THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN INTRODUCE SEVERAL INEFFICIENT CONVERSIONS INTO A SYSTEM AND IMPROVE EFFICIENCY.

Jeez people, go back to school........

-G
_________________
All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!

gnm · Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

Look, at 15 amps with 100% efficiency you are producing 180 watts. after all the changes in energy form you are losing a BIG chunk of that. And you are trying to tell me that this is magically improving the mileage after you used the original fuel to "generate" all that power?

Do you know what percentage of a running vehicle 180 watts is? Jack crap.

Do you think making that into HHO changes that any? Well it does - it loses a lot of the power in conversion.

Mad

-G
_________________
All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!