Klein/HHO Gas

Kramerchi · Coal Joined: Jul 26, 2005 Posts: 7

I did a search and didn't find anything on this board. Any thoughts on this one?

http://www.atsnn.com/story/158213.html

http://hytechapps.com/technology/index.html

I'm more than a little skeptical.

-Kramerchi

Brandon · Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:44 pm Post subject:

Read my comments about it here:

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic10405.html

Smile

ChumpusRex · Heavy Crude Joined: Jul 18, 2005 Posts: 100

This is a scam.

Oxy-hydrogen torches do exist, and electrolytic hydrogen generators to produce gas for these torches have been available for years.

The problem is that oxy-hydrogen torches are rubbish, when compared to oxy-acetylene, because the flame is a lower temperature and has a lower density. Cutting or welding steel or other modern alloys is very difficult, and very slow, because of the high temperatures required.

Scamsters have promoted hydrogen torches for a long time, often claiming obvious BS like 'Brown's gas', 'Klien gas' or a 'stabilised monatomic hydrogen oxygen mixture'. Moreover they were often willing to demonstrate cutting and welding - usually with low temperature metals like lead, or tin. Convincing to dumb investors, but a joke to engineers and metal workers.

Hydrogen torches are most commonly used for fine heating and soldering where precision and controllability are more important than raw power e.g. by jewelers. As you might imagine, for a small, occasionally used device, an electrolytic gas source is ideal.

Kramerchi · Coal Joined: Jul 26, 2005 Posts: 7

Thanks for the link. I figured it had to be on here somewhere,

Yeah, I figured it was probably at best a romanticized summary of what the technology actually does. I, like most others who saw the story, saw it on Fox News (I know, I know- not exactly a ringing endorsement). I don't know enough about the physics involved to make an assertion one way or the other, but it definitely struck me as coming completely out of left field. They never *really* made it clear if the car in the story could be run totally on "HHO" gas or not. Also, though they never said it, I assume this is a "carrier" of energy and not a source of energy. My understanding is that they were trying to claim it was easier to produce and a more stable carrier to transport than pure hydrogen.

They did say the government was making SUV's that ran on the stuff for use in Iraq though- so what's the deal?! They also said an automaker was consulting with the patent holder about making cars that run on it.

Is this just another "I heard it on TV- therefor it must be true" types of things or what?

Another thing that made me raise my eyebrows was that the Fox news crew editorialized a little afterwards about the device that creates the HHO gas- "I sure hope the oil companies don't buy that patent! That would be horrible!" Since when is Fox news critical of Big Oil?!?!

So what is their point of including this on the news? Is it just to give us false hope? What?

-Kramerchi

ChumpusRex · Heavy Crude Joined: Jul 18, 2005 Posts: 100

jlayman800 · Coal Joined: May 17, 2006 Posts: 1

At the very least, Klein has come up with a small, mobile machine capable of producing a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen and then pumping that mixture into the fuel stream of a car. He appears to have eliminated any significant storage of the gas mixture thus eliminating the need for a "hydrogen cell". It would seem possible that injecting hydrogen gas at a higher than atmospheric pressure into a car's fuel stream would increase the compression ratio while adding extra fuel availability. Even without any mystery gas, this would be a nice answer.

The other claims about a different kind of hydrogen / oxygen molicule, about producing the gas as very low energy cost, and about burning at a much higher temperature than other hydrogen tourches seem like blue smoke. Time will tell.

What makes this story so interesting is the off chance that we could tell the oil producer's to kiss off. I'd love to see that within my lifetime.

Triffin · Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

Here's the video ..

http://www.jabberwonk.com/flinker.cfm?cliid=1l86r

Triff ..

Triffin · Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Klein/HHO Gas

Here's the video ..

http://www.jabberwonk.com/flinker.cfm?cliid=1l86r

and you can buy his generator here ..

http://hytechapps.com/applications/order.htm

Is this real or pickle smoke ??

Triff ..

ChumpusRex2 · Tar Sands Joined: Mar 11, 2006 Posts: 77

I've no idea what's going on with the car installation, but it's pretty clear that we're not getting the full story.

I suspect it's some variant on hydrogen injection for gasoline engines. If you add hydrogen to the gasoline-air mixture in an engine, it acts as a powerful octane booster. This potentially allows you to use a very high compression engine, run it on regular gas, but get all the efficiency and performance benefits of high compression.

While some people are looking at electrolysis of water for the source of hydrogen - the automakers seem to have more interest in getting the hydrogen from the gasoline: the gasoline has lots of energy in it already, so you don't need a heavy duty electrical supply and expensive platinum electrolyser, with the right catalysts and set up, you can get the hydrogen with very little energy input. Extracting the hydrogen from the gas, also tends to produce carbon monoxide, which is also a potent octane booster (and fuel).

enixon · Coal Joined: May 19, 2006 Posts: 3

Ok fokes, I hate to be the one to burst your fantasy bubble but this entire story is a scam, Nothing more, nothing less.

Roughly once a decade a over the hill self proclaimed inventor comes along and claims to have invented a car that runs on water. What is actually happening is that these guys get the idea of splinting hydrogen and oxygen apart from water to fuel a car then look in to how it might be done only to find out that that process called "electrolysis" was invented in the 19th century.

These guys get it in their head that they've invented some thing so great and wonderful that when they are faced with the truth I believe they just ignore it. I think they really do think they have made some thing new, when in reality they have reproduced the same dam invention. Many of you may have noticed how this Kline guy said " my special electrolysis process." when I heard that, my bullshit meter went through the roof. There's nothing NEW about this guy or his invention. In fact it has all been faked before. Back in the early 90's a guy by the name of Stanley Meyers did the same thing. He got the military and lost of news stations talking to him but at the end of the day it was all a scam. He was simply using standard electrolysis, and as a result he had to pay back all of the 25,000 he got from investors.

heres a link to the Meyer's guy. There's a news video on there just like this new guy. Never trust some thing just because it's on TV.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer

Many people keep talking about Hydrogen fuel like it's going to replace oil. Every one who talks like this has absolutely no idea what there talking about as I'm sure the person that said this quote " What makes this story so interesting is the off chance that we could tell the oil producer's to kiss off. I'd love to see that within my lifetime." would agree. They don't know a atom from a electron.

Hydrogen fuel cells run on hydrogen and oxygen. But where dose hydrogen come from? You run massive amounts of electricity through water. But where do you get the Electricity? We could get it all from nuclear power plants but people are stupid and think that they are dangerous without knowing the science behind them. There are many many nuclear subs in our oceans and our sailer's aren't glowing green.

However the sad truth is the following. The Bush administration started a committee in 2005 to deiced where the electricity would come from to produce Hydrogen for automobiles. Every member of that committee except one(a solar power guy) was from the oil industry and as such they deiced the best way to produce electricity was to build large power plants which will run on oil. So we are basically trading millions of small oil using factories for dozens of large ones. This doesn't salve our problem at all and it pains me to think that I voted for the Bush.

Be for you guys get all exited, how about you go take a semester of chemistry at your local community college. Learning shouldn't stop just because you are out of high school or have a college degree.

I don't often get drawn in to these dumb scam debates but I'm so annoyed by my countrymens lack of basic knowledge of chemistry. The Corrupt politicians get away with this shit because most Americans are historically, politically, and scientifically illiterate.

slagskot · Coal Joined: May 19, 2006 Posts: 1

enixon
You sound quite knowledgeable about the chemistry of this thing, but please go take a community college course of your own on English grammar and spelling. It drives me crazy when an intelligent person diminishes their argument with poor spelling and grammar.

enixon · Coal Joined: May 19, 2006 Posts: 3

Point taken I should have proof read that long of a post.

BTW, Has any one found the patent number on this guy's invention?

QuelDommage · Coal Joined: May 20, 2006 Posts: 1

APPLICATIONS
20060075683 Apparatus and method for the conversion of water into a new gaseous and combustible form and the combustible gas formed thereby
20060032555 Anti-rust treatment using KLEIN.TM. gas flame
20050269210 Electrolytic solution for promoting electrolysis of water
20050258049 Hydrogen generator for uses in a vehicle fuel system
20040149591 Apparatus and method for the conversion of water into a new gaseous and combustible form and the combustible gas formed thereby
20040074781 Hydrogen generator for uses in a vehicle fuel system

PATENT
6,866,756 Hydrogen generator for uses in a vehicle fuel system

I haven't had time to look through any of them. You can look them up for yourself at http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

DoubtingLiz · Coal Joined: May 24, 2006 Posts: 1

First of all, I'm not a scientist/engineer so I'm not trying to infringe on anyone's brainpower here.

Denny Klien's brother happens to be a good friend of my boyfriends father (got that?) I've been hearing about this "hydrogen technology" for, oh, two years now. Last year when my boyfriend was thinking of investing money into this company I ended up doing a lot of research on Klein, HHO, the water-torch, and this car that supposedly runs on hydrogen. At every family function there is usually a big to-do about how the stock is going to go public in a "couple of months" (the current date is Aug 2006) and everyone is going to be millionaires.

The thing is, I agree wholeheartedly with enixon. This whole deal is 90% woo.

The first flag for me was that people that are very close to this operation--and have invested thoustands of dollars in it--know next to nothing about the actual technology. The one reason my boyfriends father gives for why the "test vehicle" runs on some hydrogen/ mostly gasoline is because if they ran it completely on hydrogen it would be too hot and essentially "melt" the engine of the car... apparently the have to come up with a new metal now also? Does that even make any sense at all?

An essential point no one has ever explained is where does the power come from to electrolyze the water/hydrogen mixture in the car? From what I understand, this takes a lot of energy, and by the time it's all said and done, you're only getting about a third as much mechanical energy vs. your electrical energy input. That is not effecient at all.

(A couple of people that know much more about physics than I do discuss it here.)

What Klein is really doing is essentially a "shock and awe" routine with that water welder of his. When you watch a 30 second bit on CNN (you can see it here. ) It looks impressive, that's what I thought at first too. But there are reasons why in the last 20 years these water-welders haven't become the norm... they make brittle, unmachineable welds, are not easy to transport, and take more that twice as long to cut through materials than conventional methods. People who weld for a living would understand that. Average Joe's that watch CNN or Fox news and see water turned to flame (and don't understand it) figure if Klein can do that, then sure, why couldn't he run a car off it?

From what I understand, after the half-assed coverage of recent news reports (I do have to give FOX Detroit new anchors some credit, they did ask if our fuel crisis really would be solved by a man in a flannel shirt...) there have been a lot of people wanting to invest in Kleins Company--even people from Arnold Schwartzenegger's camp-- which just goes to show the world is full of stupid people, and some of them run our country.

robertp · Coal Joined: May 24, 2006 Posts: 1

enixon - you did not "burst my bubble", but thank you for being so polite about your skepticism in the science.

I have taken more than a semester of community college chemistry, and I have read the patent application too. I'm willing to hear more from Klein before passing him off as "just another guy who has re-invented electrolysis."

Maybe, I'm a bit of an idealist, but I'm willing to hear more before I start ranting and raving that this thing is a scam.

I found it hilarious that enixon posted his whole rant and rave, and THEN admitted that he hadn't even read Klein's patent application! So, I have to assume that he is making his mind up based off of internet posts and Fox News.

Great. Whos the "illiterate" American now? Speak for yourself, Buddy.