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Caoimhan
Intermediate Crude
Joined: May 10, 2005
Posts: 562
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 Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:57 pm Post subject: Anger of Hydrogen |
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Okay, this is my first post in this forum, but reading all the hype about hydrogen is just getting me angry. I can't help but to think of all the money that's being sunk into it that could be used for more practical solutions. Add in that it's the big petroleum companies and their cronies in the big auto corporations and government who are pushing this...
It really makes me want to grab the lapels of their Armani suits and just shake some sense into them.
Listen... hydrogen fuel cells are a pretty cool technology. It appeals to the techno-geek in me... but THEY ARE NOT A SOLUTION TO THE IMPENDING OIL PRODUCTION SHORTAGE, neither are they as clean as some people claim. |
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SchroedingersCat
Intermediate Crude
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Joined: May 26, 2005
Posts: 506
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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Two things about the 'hydrogen solution' that really get my goat:
-It's primarily a way to transition corporate welfare from the fossil fuel sector to something new;
- Hydrogen, if it leaks into the atmosphere, has a very high probability of further damaging the ozone layer. And...fuel cells output water vapor. The worst of all the greenhouse gases! Much worse than C02.
Yeah, great solution.
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Civilization is a personal choice. |
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Sys1
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Feb 25, 2005
Posts: 596
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Anger of Hydrogen |
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| You should also add that hydrogen is not an energy source but an energy carrier and that we would have a lack of platinium to craft millions of hydrogen motors... |
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JudoCow09
Heavy Crude
Joined: Aug 07, 2005
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Anger of Hydrogen |
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Yes. Pure Hydrogen is pointless as we could never store it easily or really mass-produce fuel cells. However, combining hydrogen with other elements, chemicals, or molecules may work.
...why did Henry Ford have to go out and invent the car? He couldn't of invented something that wouldn't play out to be the number one impending problem of PO. |
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turmoil
Moderator
Joined: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 1173
Location: Richmond, VA, Pale Blue Dot
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Anger of Hydrogen |
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Thinking abiotic oil will save us is equally unnerving.
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"If you are a real seeker after truth, it's necessary that at least once in your life you doubt all things as far as possible"-Rene Descartes
"When you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains however improbable must be the truth"-Sherlock Holmes |
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MonteQuest
Elite
Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 13460
Location: Sedona, Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Anger of Hydrogen |
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| JudoCow09 wrote: | Yes. Pure Hydrogen is pointless as we could never store it easily or really mass-produce fuel cells. However, combining hydrogen with other elements, chemicals, or molecules may work.
...why did Henry Ford have to go out and invent the car? He couldn't of invented something that wouldn't play out to be the number one impending problem of PO. |
Pointless? In the Energy forum you posted this:
| Judocow09 wrote: | | Why can't Hydrogen work? Sure, it can't replace plastics, but if Hydrogen can work in cars, it can power the world. Oil is mainly needed to power the world then a few other things, but we can use hydrogen to replace oil altogether in the burning point. It's just a matter of changing everything we use now to use hydrogen. If we had wide-spread effort to do this, the world could. Orginally we would need natural gas to extract hydrogen(although certain chemical reactions would also make hydrogen), but eventually we may very well be able to extract hydrogen using hydrogen. As long as we used a smaller amount of hydrogen to make more of what went in to making it. |
Ignorance to expertise?
I smell a rat.
_________________
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog. |
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MD
Community Manager
Joined: May 02, 2005
Posts: 3131
Location: One more question...
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Anger of Hydrogen |
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Confusion reigns supreme. Hey, maybe it's time to dig up a fusion thread again?
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"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
Robert A. Heinlein
md@peakoil.com |
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Maddog
Coal
Joined: Aug 20, 2005
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Anger of Hydrogen |
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| So what exactly is the problem with hydrogen. It sounds like a reasonable alternative. I mean, there are a lot of car companies investing money in Hydrogen Fuel Cells. Why would they do that if it would prove to be useless? |
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JudoCow09
Heavy Crude
Joined: Aug 07, 2005
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Anger of Hydrogen |
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| Quote: | | So what exactly is the problem with hydrogen. It sounds like a reasonable alternative. I mean, there are a lot of car companies investing money in Hydrogen Fuel Cells. Why would they do that if it would prove to be useless? |
People believe that Car Companies are investing money into these such projects because basically they say they have a revolutionary idea that will save us from PO and ask if anyone wants to support them.
Monte:
Trying to prove I'm a rat will not work for a good reason. I'm not. It's really hard to tell a cow it's a turkey and convince the rest of the world of the same thing. Yes, you can be wrong and let's leave it at that.
People learn. People read. I learned that pure hydrogen wouldn't work as well as other alternatives. When I wrote that post, I didn't know the storage problems of hydrogen let alone that fuel cells needed metals that were scarce. |
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MonteQuest
Elite
Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 13460
Location: Sedona, Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Anger of Hydrogen |
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| Maddog wrote: | | So what exactly is the problem with hydrogen. It sounds like a reasonable alternative. I mean, there are a lot of car companies investing money in Hydrogen Fuel Cells. Why would they do that if it would prove to be useless? |
Let's debate the issue of viability in the Energy forum, ok?
But to be succinct, it is not an energy source.
_________________
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog. |
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MonteQuest
Elite
Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 13460
Location: Sedona, Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Anger of Hydrogen |
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| JudoCow09 wrote: | Monte:
Trying to prove I'm a rat will not work for a good reason. I'm not. It's really hard to tell a cow it's a turkey and convince the rest of the world of the same thing. Yes, you can be wrong and let's leave it at that.
People learn. People read. I learned that pure hydrogen wouldn't work as well as other alternatives. When I wrote that post, I didn't know the storage problems of hydrogen let alone that fuel cells needed metals that were scarce. |
Then spend more time reading and learning and less posting and you will avoid these contradictions. You weigh in here like you have a grasp on the issue and yet you admit you just learned it.
You are parroting facts that you don't yet understand.
_________________
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog. |
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JudoCow09
Heavy Crude
Joined: Aug 07, 2005
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Anger of Hydrogen |
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| I understand basic facts. No, I can't tell you how a fuel cell works. But I do know these facts. I do comprehend them. And I didn't state false things. I didn't anger anyone did I? Not many people including you would argue with the first statement I made in this forum. We all pretty much in agreement that's no lie. |
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MonteQuest
Elite
Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 13460
Location: Sedona, Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Anger of Hydrogen |
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| JudoCow09 wrote: | | I understand basic facts. No, I can't tell you how a fuel cell works. But I do know these facts. I do comprehend them. And I didn't state false things. I didn't anger anyone did I? Not many people including you would argue with the first statement I made in this forum. We all pretty much in agreement that's no lie. |
No one said the statement was false, but it appears that you change opinions at a whim. Like you are playing with us. This is what trolls do.
Don't do that and you won't get this type of response.
_________________
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog. |
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