How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
There are some really nice velomobiles out there...
I've been thinking of getting a bike trailer for medium hauling, and found this ugly, knackered gem on the interweb:
link
It's discontinued, and afaik nothing similar can't be bought. I do really like the idea, but I think I'd prefer a two wheeled tralier for stability and cargo space.
I daily see parents hauling their kids in these in the summer. It's pretty neat, but they do struggle uphill. Dual hub motors and a lead acid battery or two perhaps?
BTW, this is what my mailman drives:
better picture
Lightning fast it ain't, but it seems to get the job done, and I usually smile when I see one. Lead acid and brushless, I believe.
Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
You're right, and a little bit wrong. Laminar flow fairings are inherently pretty. Nothing looks as pleasing to my eye as, say, a fast subsonic airplane. Smooth wooshy shapes and soft curves are desirable, but there's also a different kind of beauty to be found in raw, uncomplicated utility. A perfected design is one that cannot be simplified. Putting form before function is stupid. Really good design unites the two, and I willingly admit that the mailman moped trike fails here, as it is an ugly abomination of a vehicle. The windshield has a forward rake for heaven's sake. But it works, and as this is the only EV I see on the streets I give it two thumbs up. In a perfect world it would be low, sleek and built on a carbon composite monocoque - but where's the use in that if you're the mailman?
...Mmmmmmmmmmm...Laminar flow......
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3428 Location: California, USA
Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:10 am Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
Still there is something to be said for simple boxy designs intended to carry one or two people plus cargo at speeds of 30 mph and below on city streets. The edges could be rounded off, and a wedge-like shape used, without sacrificing utility.
The Twike human/electric hybrid is to my mind the state of the art. 55 miles per hour, 90 miles on a charge, more if you pedal, and recharges in 2 - 4 hours. Space for two plus moderate cargo capacity. IMHO its only shortcoming is the joystick steering arrangement, which is probably prone to positive feedback errors on turns and short stops. I would prefer conventional handlebars or anything that lets you use both hands and balance your weight in turns and stops. At $26k US, it's not cheap, but low operating costs balance that out when compared to an automobile. These things are now legal in the US, and are even advertised in the Nieman Marcus catalog of upscale gifts, a good bet for getting a reputation as chic, cool, sexy, or whatever you call it when wealthy trendsetters pick up on something and then lots more people want it. AS volume goes up, costs go down; and with some of the new battery designs, range and recharge times can be improved to the point where these really can replace automobiles.
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1365 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
gg3 wrote:
Still there is something to be said for simple boxy designs intended to carry one or two people plus cargo at speeds of 30 mph and below on city streets. The edges could be rounded off, and a wedge-like shape used, without sacrificing utility.
Workbikes are in use in many cities, and have evolved in interesting ways;
I think there's a potential problem with the front wheel placement; it's too far back from the nose of the vehicle; I wonder if this may cause some of the weird handling issues such as fishtailing...?
Trikes require the load to be biased toward the front axle in this kind of configuration, which is probably why they moved the rear wheel back.
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1365 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
gg3 wrote:
The Twike human/electric hybrid is to my mind the state of the art. 55 miles per hour, 90 miles on a charge, more if you pedal, and recharges in 2 - 4 hours. Space for two plus moderate cargo capacity.
The Twike represents the suburban transportation wave of the future (if there is not a hard crash). At $26k USD, the price is a bit steep now, though as you mentioned, high production volumes can bring that way down (under $10k USD should be feasible).
Human power/electric hybrids are way cool - sort of the anti-SUV of personal transportation. Problem is we live in a SUV mindset world... Personally I think the twike looks kind of awkward on it's three wheels. Am I perhaps infected by this mindset myself? A prime number of wheels just seems wrong to me for some reason.
Seeing that prices are still what they are, I still think it's gonna be power bike trailer for me if I want my very own hp/e hybrid. The idea is growing on me. It's been a while since I undertook a project like this, but if I get enthused enought it might just happen.
Human power/electric hybrids are way cool - sort of the anti-SUV of personal transportation. Problem is we live in a SUV mindset world... Personally I think the twike looks kind of awkward on it's three wheels. Am I perhaps infected by this mindset myself?
I believe we all are, though knowing what the alternative is brings it all into perspective. I showed this clip to my 10 year old daughter who said, "those look wierd", though after watching the full clip, plus several on velomobiles, became acclimatized to such vehicles, especially when she realized that they required no gas/petrol.
Quote:
Seeing that prices are still what they are, I still think it's gonna be power bike trailer for me if I want my very own hp/e hybrid. The idea is growing on me. It's been a while since I undertook a project like this, but if I get enthused enought it might just happen.
Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
skyemoor wrote:
What do you think about bike conversions like Zap? Is there a reason a trailer is appealing to you?
Intuitively I think friction drive power conversions seem inefficient, but I really have no idea, as I've never seen one in real life. I have seen dedicated e-bikes with hub motors, and they seem nice enough - not terribly expensive either, probably good value. Thing is, I don't really need them. I'm youngish, healthy and in reasonable shape, and I have no problem pedalling myself and a light load where I usually need to go.
Heavy or bulky cargo, however, presents a bit of a problem. The reason a powered trailer appeals to me, I guess, is the ability to expand the utility of my everyday vehicle with a detachable addition rather than a dedicated, complicated vehicle with capabilities I wouldn't need very often.
Let me try to explain my thinking with an automotive culture analogy: In the US, pickups are very common. Most of the time the truck beds are empty. Here pickups are rare, but you see trailer hitches on most regular cars. Far from all people with hitch equipped cars own trailers, but you can usually borrow your neighbour's or rent one cheaply to do your hauling. The downsides compared to pickups are probably obvious to any truck lover, but the upside is a more efficient everyday vehicle use.
The ideal bike trailer between my ears would clamp onto almost any bike within minutes without modification, stand a maximum load of 100 kg or so, and be able to push itself and at least some of the loaded weight up hills and up to speed. It would NOT be a device to push around bike and rider at high speed, however, as this seems like a highly unstable arrangement to me.
Perhaps it's even possible to connect the motor controller to a force sensor in the hitch, and thus have a trailer on "auto pilot"? This would do away with stability issues and possibly any handle bar mounted controls at all, save for some kind of emergency kill switch?
Anyway, I hope I've managed to clarify my thinking. Please don't hesitate to point out anything foolish with this idea.
Even though the pictured/linked vehicle is rather ugly, I very much like the concept of a fully enclosed two-wheeler with a retractable "landing gear" (ought to enable easy start/stop/tight cornering/reverse). Now imagine it's a pretty looking single seat recumbent, feather light (carbon monocoque!), with a lithium-brushless power pack for that extra oomph. Throw in some photovoltaic skin and general gadgetry if you're so inclined, and you have my vision of ideal personal transportation.
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1365 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
nemo wrote:
Sorry mate, me again. I'f were talking ideal, I'd like something along the lines of this:
We were actually talking about ideal human-powered vehicle, perhaps with an assist, so the above vehicle is more suited to the Motorcycles and Scooters thread.
As an observation, at 90kph (~55mph), it achieves about 4.15l/100km or about 53 miles per gallon, My Honda Insight achieves about 65 mpg at that speed, costs 3 times less, is heated and air conditioned, and can carry a sizeable amount of cargo (say, two week's worth of groceries and a set of golf clubs).
Of course, speed and power (not to mention size) can be seductive, that's how we got ourselves into this mess to begin with. So your further refinement of the above to the fully faired human-powered vehicle shows how people can temper their whims while still accomplishing what they really need to do.
Joined: Jan 19, 2007 Posts: 7 Location: Canberra, Australia
Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:23 am Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
Electric assist cycles are a fantastic idea, but so are low powered low fuel consumption internal combustion ones - true mopeds.
When I moved to this city in the early 1990s I told the land agent that I wanted a place within walking distance of work. I got it. I have saved AU$10,000 in parking fees alone not to mention fuel, general wear and tear and possible car theft over time. In the meantime I bought a standard bicycle for a few hundred and get to work in six minutes from closing the house door. No, I don't bother with parti-coloured Lycra cycle clothes. With a fairly decent network of cycle paths Canberra allows this kind of thing and there are a few electric assist bicycles about, more like standard cycles than the enclosed one pictured here. But most cyclists use standard cycles or recumbents. _________________ What? More expense?
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