Hoarding is exactly what the government is doing right now by filling the SPR, and frankly it's the best thing that could happen. It drives prices up. High prices encourage demand destruction. They also finance new well development. The hoarded oil gives us a buffer to fall back on once shortages become more prevalent. High prices are what we need in order to adapt to what's coming, and the sooner they happen, the better.
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:33 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
The other night as oil rose above $70, I said to my wife,
"looks like my prediction are coming true"
She didn't reply with "yes, you're so great" that I expected.
She said " what are you doing about it?"
I said " well, look at all my preparations, solar panels, vegetable garden, yada , yada, yada, I've tried telling people and I couldn't be bothered anymore"
Her point though was that we have a responsibility to try harder to inform and educate for all our sakes. _________________ www.askaboutenergy.com
Joined: Jun 26, 2004 Posts: 1189 Location: Madison,Wisconsin
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
I think the average person has an impression of their government that is simply incorrect.
Before i go into that, madpaddy, I think your intent is noble and good, but misaimed. I would agree with the poster sighting the ohio example, writing messages to foriegn goverments isn't going to really get you anything except maybe a nice thank you letter. You have no power over them, as you don't vote for them.
This is the thrust of my arguement, you should be focusing on the government that you have direct voting power over.
I realize alot of people on here have an extreme distrust of government. Rightly so too. But what people on here need to realize is the reason governments become untrustworthy is we let them get that way. Anytime you say to yourself, this and such government is doing this and such thing i don't like, if you have the power to vote those people into office, what you should be saying is, why the heck did i vote for them, or, why the heck didn't i work harder to keep them out of office.
Now, on to specifics. Madpaddy, i don't know dick about irelands goverment. I have never been there nor studied it, so your going to have to decide if i what i advise is even feasable over there. But i do know in the US, local government is the most under paid attention to form of government known to man. Town, city, county, even at the state level, all these elections are often won by less than 500 votes, and they have HUGE effects on what your peak oil picture is going to look like. If you really want to have an effect, stop thinking of what just you can do.
Governments of all levels listen to only one thing, what will get them out of office. IE Voters. They DO listen to them, its just they listen harder if they know your going to bring large numbers of voters to the polls on a paticular issue. To do this you need organization. You need to get people knowledgable about this on more than an informal basis. An organization get's respect, some guy in an email yelling about peak oil gets about 0 respect. ( i am doing a diservice to some politicians who actively do listen to even the smallest amount of voters, but the more honest ones will admit even they, when push comes to shove, vote the way the majority of the citizens want them to vote. In a rep. democracy, this is after all their job)
So you need an organization. The nice thing about peak oil is it brings people together. Stop and think about it for a second. This page has people who are hard core republicans, democrats, greens, libertarians( using usa party distinctions) and yet we all agree on one thing. That is an organization that could be feared. Such cross party support means that any candidate that doesn't agree with your issues would find not only their political enemys gunning for them, but people within their own party.
As for what you personally can do, get involved in city or other local government. Run for public office. Learn more about the poltical process in a way other than disgust. One of the sadest things i know is their is a local politician in Wisconsin who was doing what people had been begging for for years, holding public meetings on if housing projects where going to be approved or what not. The only people who attended where members of the media. The point is, until you become involved, you kinda don't have a right to complain. And just voting is not involved enough. Not if you really want to make a difference. Voting is expressing one's opinions, activism is changing peoples opinions.
Inclosing though, keep that activism close to home at first. You know no place better than your own home. Trying to cross continents and advise someone else on something they may not even believe in probably will backfire. That's up to the people in those places to do. What you can do is change your own locale. And that IS within your power. _________________ Azreal60
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:05 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
Azreal,
That was a great post.
I'm doing what I can here, writing articles for local newspapers etc. However, much as I would like to run for public office, my being an officer in the military precludes me from ALL political activity.
I suppose the general populace won't bother with PO until they are freezing their asses off this winter. Hopefully, when the problem becomes impossible to ignore, TPTB will take action that will improve and not exacerbate the situation. _________________ www.askaboutenergy.com
Joined: Jan 31, 2005 Posts: 451 Location: Massachusetts
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:40 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
It's really a question of priorities and where you think is the best investment of time and energy. Do you concentrate on preparing for the wrenching changes that are certain to come and saving yourself and those close to you from doom? Or do you try to convince the government to take action?
As Azreal pointed out, governments respond only to large and well-funded interest groups. What would be needed to move US government policy would be an interest group large and organized enough to counter rich campaign contributors and big corporations, including the corporate-controlled media, which now essentially determine policy (with a few cultural bones thrown to the religious right).
The difficulties in creating such an organization are that
1) Most people do not want to hear about peak oil.
2) Most people's opinions are shaped by the corporate media.
3) The corporate media, with an interest in maximizing short-term profit,
will make the idea of peak oil look ridiculous or dangerous as soon as it
starts to threaten those profits by actually reducing consumption. Even
if media corporations are open to the concept, their advertisers will
force them to demonize it. Republicans will paint peak oilers as
enemies of America, and the media will play along.
I just don't see much possibility for grassroots organizing in this environment. You may have some initial success in bringing together the people who are not committed to denial, but as soon as your organization becomes really threatening, the demonization will begin and people will be slamming doors in your face or even reaching for their rifles in some parts of the US.
If you think that this is the best investment of your time and energy, by all means, pursue this course.
For my part, however, I will be working to try to save my own skin and the skin of those I care about. I'd frankly rather stay below the radar and not do anything really threatening to the powers that be so that I have a better chance of being left to go about my business.
Joined: Aug 17, 2005 Posts: 572 Location: Portugal
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:48 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
[quote="Doly"]
whereagles wrote:
Mankind has only left the jungle 10 000 years ago. That's too little time to become truly adult.
And how long, according to you, would it take mankind as a species to become truly adult?
[quote]
First let me tell you that by "adult" I mean that mankind has learned how to live as a society. Individuals and groups would put the interests of the society and the planet before theirs.
Such high standard of ethics would take, in my opinion, something like 100 000 to 1 million years to acheive. Why is that? Because mankind has been nomad for 1 million years. As nomad you need aggressive, hoarding and killer instincts to survive. About 10 000 years ago we became sedentary. The hunter-gatherer instincts are secondary for life in a society. Social skills, like for instance mutual protection and mutual respect, are what is needed for social life in harmony with other members.
Now, believe 10 000 years is far too little time for the genetic evolution to settle down and change our metal structures from the nomad lifestyle to sedentary one. In today's society people STILL live as if they were nomads. They are greedy, egoistic and don't care much for others (unless it's in their interest).
So, as I said, I estimate 100 000 years at best, though a million seems more in par. This assume a natural course of events. If something really unusual happens, like a global war or unnatural selection of the best socially-fit members, then we might take less time to reach adulthood. But that's unlikely.
Joined: Jan 11, 2005 Posts: 443 Location: southern Wisconsin
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:56 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
Azreal is dead on. As individuals, our communications to politicians, reporters, etc. will be largely ignored. I've been trying that route and the silence is deafening.
They can't and won't ignore an organization that has the potential to garner the support of a good chunk of the voting public.
The crux of the problem is our message. If the message is that our only hope of survival is to live sustainably, we are not going to attract much support from the masses.
As energy prices continue to soar, the masses will demand that the government do something. They will look to alternative energy sources simply as a way to enable them to continue what they are doing now.
The only hope I see is that we target young folks, providing them with a vision of a sustainable lifestyle that is more palatable than the one the mass media is selling them now. Very tall order.
This was attempted on an informal basis during the 60s, and it did resonate with a lot of us who were young at the time. However, the alternative lifestyle presented certainly wasn't sustainable, and, er, at least a chunk of it was devoted to ingesting illegal substances.
But there were some serious folks who created communes and some of these persist to this day.
Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 251 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
Governments work for corporations - not citizens (see "The Corporation" movie, its worth it). So as long as oil is flowing at a VERY high profit margin, there is no need for anyone to rock the boat.
We need to tell everyone around us - they will be our support in this. No need to "freak" ppl out. Some ppl like to get to the meat of an issue while others prefer baby steps. Focus on the benefits - if we become less dependant on oil, we save alot of money. If we save alot of money we can pay off our debts and our mortgages. Why do we need to do this? Have we ever seen a time in history w/interest rates this low for this long (answer: no). So we need to be prepared for high interest rates. We need to prepare. I think its way more valueable to focus on that then trying to sway media or government.
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