Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Peak Kids
Well, I am now at the grandparent stage. My three children range in age from 35 to 24. One grandchild so far. These are my experiences, very shortly, about PO and kids. We certainly were acquianted with the overpopulation and limits to growth issues already in the 70s when we had our first baby. Yet the parenting drive is strong. And here in Europe, there was no excess of newborns all through these years.
There was thread about telling your marriage partner about PO.
Well, I had no trouble telling my hubby a few years ago, when reading Heinberg (actually, I had heard about much of the stuff already in 1997, that all the middle east reserves were exaggerated and that PO with lots of problem would arrive in 2003 at the latest.....)
Except for us, having fought the lunacy of car culture and a car dependent infrastructure since 1971, the idea that cars are doomed is not that repulsive.
Anyway we lived with three children and no car in a suburb where everyone had a car. The children's school mates were surprised or astonished that such a thing was possible. We did not do anything else particularly principled - they went to the nearest day-care and nearest school, with lots of kids with lots of clothes - well hubby and me are very out of fashion when it come to clothes.
Yes, with children you have to accept that you sometimes will give them pain just for being yourself. They do not like to feel 'different'. Yet most kids are embarrassed of their parents at some stage -no matter how mainstream and ordinary they are.
In our case, all three turned out fine, doing education and jobs, no drugs or antisocial behavior. One spent six months in the field with 'Medicine sans frontier' doctors without borders Really great people, if I may say so. Two of them do not own cars (not even having driving licences, actually) -so our attitude might have stuck at least some.
Now, our adult children are PO aware -sort of. They are all concerned and quite knowledgable about environmental issues. So, while I certainly think they will have a tough ride in their lives, perhaps especially our two-year-old granddaughter, I do not want to make them miserable ahead of time. So I do not bring up the issue, especially since they already seem to think that it is a bad idea to go deeply into debt for housing.
GG3, I totally agree about the Playmobil. It's expensive, but so worth it. There are no marketing tie-ins, no scripted play. My kids, like you said, make an entire scale-model of farms, wilderness, and whatever (Viking raids when I get to play!) and it all comes out of their imagination. They toys are durable and never need to be replaced, unless pieces are lost.
Imaginative play is where it' at. The best way to encourage this is to ditch the TV.
I took this (and I may be completely wrong here!) to be more directed to the "you're going to have to eat your kids, watch them be rape slaves etc" crowd? You know, when you're trying to have a constructive and mature conversation about how best to raise children in the current (and coming) environment, and then someone comes along and starts ranting on, and a once productive, informative and intelligent thread is ruined.
There are of course lots of "non-parents" who could have invaluable input, even without personal experience of their "own" children, and I would welcome their input. The other dudes - well, they can go and start their own thread (or visit one of the many they already have running)
(and please excuse me Kochevnik if I have misrepresented your intention!)
Those Playmobil toys are really nice, so many different play sets to choose from. Our kids didn't have any of them, but I always thought they were cool. Lego blocks, and most types of building sets are good for imaginative play and actually teach skills that are precursors to design and construction. Kids will also have lots of fun with all kinds of plastic animals and dinosaurs, which don't have to be expensive at all.
When our kids were small, we made a doll house out of an old TV cabinet. It was a two-story house with windows and working doors, and we made the furniture out of scraps of wood and used pieces of cloth for curtains, bedspreads, etc. At the time you could buy (at toy and department stores) these families of animals that were fuzzy on the outside, so we got a bear family, fox family, etc. to live in the house, and that provided countless hours of sitting on the floor, making up all sorts of scenarios with the kids. We actually taught our kids safety lessons (home safety, don't go with strangers, and so on) with those animal families and that play house.
I'm sure many of you have improvised with toys as well. You're only limited by your imagination!
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: Re: Peak Kids
I loved legos and other construction sets when I was growing up, had at least five different sets. Kinda explains my interest in planning...hmm.
My girls both play with legos and I've got the older one understanding some basic engineering skills as well. I aslo have them help around the house with home improvement stuff as well. _________________ UNplanning the future...
http://unplanning.blogspot.com
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:40 am Post subject: Re: Peak Kids
pea-jay wrote:
I loved legos and other construction sets when I was growing up, had at least five different sets. Kinda explains my interest in planning...hmm. My girls both play with legos and I've got the older one understanding some basic engineering skills as well. I aslo have them help around the house with home improvement stuff as well.
Your post reminds me of something I've heard from teachers a few times...if you want to know what your child's going to do when they grow up, look at the options classes they choose and what they like to do in their free time.
We're also having our kids help with different kinds of jobs around the house, helping neighbors and relatives, learning to cook. Of course, ours are much older than your girls. The boys love every opportunity they get to do stuff in the garage with dad.
Pea-jay, I loved your story about the Lunesta butterfly!
Joined: Jun 21, 2006 Posts: 1205 Location: Burgundy, France
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: Re: Peak Kids
My twelve year old daughter is going to be a farmer, mechanical engineer, vet and pistol shooting champion
The best things I've done for her have been to teach her to read very early and to send her to a proper AMI Montessori school.
For reading, I used the Doman technique. This is a flashcard system originally used for brain-damaged children. When the children using the technique started out-performing normal kids, they realised it had a more general use. My daughter started at 10 months. This may seem cruel, but with flash cards a baby will use its language learning process to pick up the written word as well. The alphabet is taught later, as it is too abstract a concept for a small child.
Here's the testimony of someone using the multi-lingual version:
Quote:
If only you could come here to explain it to our friends who are constantly giving us an earful when the observe that our children, Samuel (4 years old) and Stephania (3 years old) can read French and English.
I simply began with cards with words of 2 cm written in red for French, and black for English. I have been showing them the words as I read them for barely a few weeks, 5 minutes in the morning, and 5 minutes in the evening.
Now they love it and actively compete at who will pick the right card (among 14 words) when I say for example : "We are looking for the word DOG".
Samuel, who began earlier, often "wins" and Stephania joyfully exclaims at his victories instead of being envious!
We speak 3 languages at home when we must: ma father doesn't speak French, my mother doesn't speak German so we chose English as a family language.
We adopted Stephania (in Haiti) three monts ago and she can already make her needs understood in French, German and English.
I do not mix sessions : we do either English or French, and in general I alternate : French for one week, English for one week.
Today Samuel told me: "Mommy, I don't know why, but I can guess the new words now. ".
So I explained to him that he had understood the logic of reading and that he can almost read by himself now.
I use the words on the cards to creates short 4 sentences tales.
They recognise the words that they already know and understand, and often, they guess, or "read/guess" words like "les/la/du/dans/que, etc"[the, of, in, that, etc].
But as soon as we tell our friends about this, they effectively counter with : "But why don't you let them play", and when we answer that in our view : "It is precisely what they are doing " , the look back at us with an undertone of : "But who are you kidding?".
But what the heck, we have always swum against the current... It pays off in the long term!
Danielle (Germany)
The earlier a child can read, the quicker they can become self-sufficient in some aspects of learning.
We moved to England when my daughter was four. She only spoke French at the time. She then spent 18 months in an AMI Montessori school. Within a month she was fluent in English, and she developed an innate self-confidence that has never left her.
The first five-six years of a child's life are the most important and set the scene for the rest of their life. Start as you mean to go on! _________________ All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha
I take my 2 daughters to the family ranch every month. At six and four years old they are regulated to carring the bucket of nails and fence ties.
I don't get into the "The oil age, your civil liberties, and modern logistical networks are coming to a end". I shield and filter them from my doom and focus on learning what will count most in the next 50 years.
I am curious on how everyone else here filters their own doom from their children. _________________ In other words, it's a huge sh*t sandwich, and we're all gonna have to take a bite.-from Full Metal Jacket
I guess we were parents along the lines PJ describes, partly because as a construction worker we didn’t have the bucks and partly because my wife and I had both had fairly rough paper routes as kids – so public school, Kmart clothes instead of hand-me-downs, pizza on Friday when I was working instead of beans mostly, and a dollar popgun or makeup set once in a while when we went to the grocery store seemed pretty ok.
Susan was always home though and always doing something, cooking, sewing, painting a wall or whatever and I am a do it yourself kind of person as well so our kids learned early on that if you wanted something bad enough you could probably figure out how to make it. Many years we made each other Christmas presents – including one year when all the presents were homemade.
Ask the kids and they would tell you our family motto (passed down from my grandma): Can’t never did anything!
I won’t talk bad about private school or home school. My personal thought is that we all need to get along in the big old ugly world and rubbing elbows with the common masses is good training.
I guess I’d say the best things to do for your kids:
Teach them discipline and respect for others and themselves
Teach them (by example) how to do things and that starts with learning how to play without elaborate toys
Read to them every day and take them to the library every week
And always, always, say "I love you" when you say good-bye. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
I am curious on how everyone else here filters their own doom from their children.
Hi, PrairieMule. We try not to be pessimistic around the kids, and our most "doomerish" conversations are kept for times when we're alone. Our kids are older, so they understand a fair bit and actually are learning a lot about the climate change issues both at home and school, and they've seen Gore's An Inconvenient Truth and listened to David Suzuki speaking on TV.
Our eldest is 20 and has always been a free thinker; she and her boyfriend have figured out a lot of stuff already. They are both quite frugal with their money and have a desire to life a simple life. Our boys are 13 and 16 and we have told them that we may not be driving for many more years, but we will teach them to drive and allow them to get their licences if that's still an option. They seem to be okay with what we've told them. We'll be working together on a garden this spring and are teaching them as many practical skills as we can think of. As a family, we go fishing in the summer, ice fishing in winter and actually go for long walks in evenings just for something to do.
Of course, this is all okay so far because nothing really disruptive has happened in our little world yet, such as unemployment or very expensive food prices.
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:56 am Post subject: Re: Peak Kids
I don't talk gloom and doom with the girls, just keep things in the here and now. The closest I get is telling them that things eventually run out sooner or later. Still too young.
On the otherhand, I have found three childrens movies particularly well suited to talking about the issues of Depletion, Geopolitics and Peak Oil. Of course, the didnt literally make a Pluto's Peak oil movie but the allegorical references are unmistakable. I used to blog and an article I wrote covered that.
* The Care Bear's Big Wish movie takes on Depletion, with a side of Climate change
* Barbie's Princess and the Pauper takes on Geopolitical issues resulting from the depletion of a natural resource
* Monster's Inc. takes on the concept of "Peak of production"
Of course all three have happy endings. If only we can be so lucky.
Joined: Nov 18, 2004 Posts: 213 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:24 am Post subject: Re: Peak Kids
we are totally "doom free" around our kids - they're far to young to be lumbered with it, at least until something "concrete" happens. We do however refrain from "sugar coating" stuff too much. Luckily, being so young, they haven't asked too many questions about our (sometimes radical) life changes over the last couple of years - in fact they probably won't even remember life "before" PO (you know, when we bought everything for them we could fit onto our credit cards, lived under a mountain of plastic toys and DVDs etc!)
Joined: Jun 05, 2005 Posts: 350 Location: Portland Oregon, USA
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Peak Kids
My wife and I save our worst hand-wringing about the future to ourselves. The kids don't have enough context yet to make sense of what we're talking about (they're 6 and 3), and, at this age, their perceptions of time and the immediacy of problems keeps them fully understanding that nothing bad will happen to them right now. Kids need to feel safe so you can't tell them stuff about a huge die-off and expect them not to be worried.
At the same time, we don't hide PO from them completely. We look around at the world and talk about how many things depend on cheap oil and gas and talk about how our lives will change when the oil and gas are much more expensive - no more airplane rides to the East Coast, no more long trips by car, no more cheap stuff built overseas, AND far fewer noisy smelly cars, more people on bikes, a more localized way of living.
Children are remarkably receptive to the idea of treating the Earth well, conserving, and living a simple life. It is we, the grown-ups, who add destructive complexity into their lives.
That's more than I have done. My eldest has overheard me talk and at one point said "pink oil". My wife would give me grumpy looks if I did anymore. She does know what makes a car run though. _________________ UNplanning the future...
http://unplanning.blogspot.com
Joined: Nov 28, 2004 Posts: 12035 Location: Neither Here Nor There
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: What Advise For My 18 Year Old Son?
I watched him and his younger sister perform in a high school play last night. It was a comedy, a sort of murder mystery/farce in which both of them did stand-up comedy routines as part of the script. Very nice to see them both so confident to perform like that. I've said very little to them about peak oil for the last couple of years, not because I worry about seeming like a crank, but because I want them to be happy. They know about it because I filled them in 3 years ago. Indeed, with these gas prices rising, he asks me what I think is going on. As I said, I haven't said too much, but now I need to show him, now that he is graduating from high school, this article It takes the situation out of the realm of speculation into concrete cold reality very well. My son has moved on from wanting to major in music to majoring in business instead, but it's time he take it into consideration that peak oil is going to affect his life profoundly. So here's what I posted this for: what should a young man do? He gained some high contacts with the Harbor Police last summer. Should I encourage him to follow up on invitations to maybe join that force? It could mean job security when TSHTF. There's also the idea that all sorts of repair work will become especially needed when people stop throwing things away, when they start keeping their cars running by hook or by crook (assuming gasoline is still available) instead of buying new ones. What good is a business degree going to be in 4 years from now? What should a young man do? The road ahead is dangerous. If there is a general and complete collapse, then this is all moot. But we can't go forward with any certainty that there will be. Could be just really hard times coming and no more than that, in fact, that seems more likely than not.
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