Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 2500 Location: Ye Olde Englande
Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
Lets not also forget that the Netherlands is the most densly populated country in Europe.
Another reason for putting limits on immigration. On the flip side however if those stats about the amount of emigrants is true then the question has to be asked why they are leaving. _________________ "The age of excess is over. The age of entropy has begun"
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
stu wrote:
Lets not also forget that the Netherlands is the most densly populated country in Europe.
Another reason for putting limits on immigration. On the flip side however if those stats about the amount of emigrants is true then the question has to be asked why they are leaving.
Perhaps the peeps moving to Ireland were more concerned about global warming! (Netherlands being below sea level and all) _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 2500 Location: Ye Olde Englande
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
It does seems strange. I lived there for three months and loved it. Maybe I was looking at Dutch society through rose-tinted glasses.
. _________________ "The age of excess is over. The age of entropy has begun"
Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 34 Location: Emmen The Netherlands
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:25 am Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
Not only in Amsterdam is the majority of births muslim. This is also the case in the other 3 major cities: Utrecht, Den Haag and Rotterdam. In 10 years time there will be a civil war in Holland
Muslims are not tolerant against christians and other faiths. Already there is a major hate against muslims. Also muslims dont like the dutch(and the west) So why are they coming? They dislike the west and our way of living? Because of the money. Muslims are building more islamitische schools, are building more mosque's. You might say the civil war is already started, and the 100.000 emigrants are refugee's.
The major question is this:
1 Do you have to be tolerance against a faith, that is not tolerant?
2 What do you do, if 2 cultures clashes?
People dont like to talk about these subject. Are to afraid to be called a racist. This is why the Dutch never talked about this problem. Those who did, were indeed called racist, but they were right. The multikul society in Holland is dead. The muslims in Holland muslims celebrated on 9/11, The muslims in Holland celebrated when the terrorist attacks in London took place and the majority of the muslims youth are hoping for an attack in Holland.
The civil war is coming closer in Holland. If an attack happens in Holland by muslims, there will be counter attacks. I dont like muslims and want them al to be send back home. I know you are not allowed to say these kind of things, but muslims and the west just dont get allong.
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:59 am Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
janser wrote:
1 Do you have to be tolerance against a faith, that is not tolerant?
2 What do you do, if 2 cultures clashes?
Of course if you are a Christian the answers are as follows.
1. Yes.
2. Turn the other cheek.
If you are not Christian then the civil war option does have some merit. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:04 am Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
rogerhb wrote:
2. Turn the other cheek.
Christians don't have a great history of turning the other cheek.
Anyway, for what to do about culture clashes, promote marriage between the two cultures. With enough mixed families, they will have to reach an agreement.
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:56 am Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
Populations tend to mix mainly with their own, I doubt that marketing cross-breeding will affect much in long term. Its expensive and it is pre-emptive effort in long term, it doesn't do much to heal current wounds. Rather the initiative has to come from hosts to integrate different cultures within it - encourage incomers to mix with new culture than praising the practice of their old ways.
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:48 am Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
rogerhb wrote:
janser wrote:
1 Do you have to be tolerance against a faith, that is not tolerant?
2 What do you do, if 2 cultures clashes?
Of course if you are a Christian the answers are as follows.
1. Yes.
2. Turn the other cheek.
If you are not Christian then the civil war option does have some merit.
janser - Unfortunately the liberals have the upper-hand in Europe and are going to drag it into the gutter. Because of a certain fool by the name of Hitler, a liberal can call anyone a nazi or racist and immediately that person is slapped down for having valid arguments against all this multi-cultural nonsense. Even Trevor Phillips (black) of the UK Commission for Racial Equality says that multi-culturalism doesn't work. There is no such thing as multi-culturalism. It is more like mono-culturalism. History shows that one culture absorbs another. The EU commissioners are working to ensure that European culture is the culture that is absorbed. In the future Europeans may be so weakened that a civil war would have no effect. It seems like that even now. And, when the oil runs out, our high-tech armies will be useless against an enemy that has a far less need for oil than we. The door will be open and Europe will be part of the caliphate once again.
rogerhb - You are an imbecile and are now on my ignore list. You like to pontificate about Europe and America from many thousands of miles away. When the west's problems eventually reach Australasia (and they surely will) then you won't be so smug. _________________ The Good Life - http://sustainable-life.co.uk/blog/
In the Dutch interiors painted by the great artists of the Golden Age, all appears in order: the ruffs of white linen and polished surfaces speak of a luminous calm. But often a furtive glance caught in a mirror, or a keyhole view of another world, suggests a charged tension behind the elegance.
The Netherlands today can still offer a picturesque tranquillity, with its swarms of straight-backed bike riders and its canals reflected in the handsome windows of gabled homes. But cut a keyhole through Dutch decorum and violence appears: a filmmaker shot and stabbed by an Islamic fanatic, politicians in hiding from jihadist threats, a newspaper columnist menaced into silence, people living in fear.
Immigration, particularly of Muslims, has long been an issue in Europe, a challenge to overburdened welfare systems and to the self-image of countries where every village hoists a church spire to the sky. But what was once a subject of worthy debate is now more a matter of survival.
_________________ "The age of excess is over. The age of entropy has begun"
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
JayBee wrote:
rogerhbyou are now on my ignore list. When the west's problems eventually reach Australasia then you won't be so smug.
Hm, I notice tolerance is not so hot here on the site. Multicuturalism is an issue that we all have to deal with whether we like it or not, and that comes from an understanding of all points of views, and also some give and take.
Europe has relaxed it's rules in order to boost it's economy, and people come from around the world to take advantage of that environment. That's what the EU is for and that's what you've got.
I remember Enoch Powell and his "rivers of blood" speech that did not eventuate, but that did not mean the tensions disappear or that we (I'm British by the way) did have not race-based riots in the UK.
Over in Austrialia and New Zealand we both have our own issues to deal with, in both the European settlers descendants have to live with the aboriginal peoples of both countries, and also both countries have more recent immigration from Asia and the remainder of the world.
Tolerance on all sides is the only thing that will stop internal conflicts, but I have no problems with raising the barriers to limit future population movements.
Europe, with it's barriers down and looking to extend the EU into Russia and Turkey is going to have an interesting future in this regard. Economic growth is seen as more important than population stability.
That's how I see it anyway. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
The problem seems to be that muslim teens have turned more and more radical, fundamentalist since 9/11. They feel unaccepted by society, feel they're attacked by the western world and as a result turn inwards to their own 'ummah', turning more conservative and fundamentalist all the time. Populists have been playing the people for political gain since 9/11 as well, and when Mohammed Bouyeri killed Theo van Gogh he confirmed their words, eventhough he was only 1 person out of a million muslims. It's all katalyzed to polarize the population. Us vs. them, it seems. As can be seen throughout history, people fear the unknown and in economic lean times turn more xenophobic. Although I read immigration has been down a lot since the government made tougher rules, it doesn't help much when you walk down a street in Amsterdam and you're outnumbered 8-2 by middle eastern looking people.
Because of several factors, these people also seem to lead all the bad lists. High unemployment, low schooling, low income, high criminality, etcetera. Ask any dutchman and they can tell you about harassment or violence of some sort by moroccans or antillians. I too have had the pleasure of receiving a jab to the jaw from some moroccan guy. It gets kinda hard to be tolerant in this state of affairs.
It might be a minority of moroccans and the majority might be your average human being, but the criminal ones are so damn prolific and vocal.
I think I lost my train of thought. _________________
Joined: Sep 17, 2005 Posts: 175 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
janser wrote:
Muslims are not tolerant against christians and other faiths. Already there is a major hate against muslims. Also muslims dont like the dutch(and the west) So why are they coming? They dislike the west and our way of living? Because of the money. Muslims are building more islamitische schools, are building more mosque's. You might say the civil war is already started, and the 100.000 emigrants are refugee's.
What you meant to say was; a minority of conservative muslims are not tolerant against christians and other faiths. There is no such thing as a major hate against muslims, maybe again another small group of uptight 'nazi-wannabe' teenagers who want to be 'cool' and hate all foreigners (well, non-Western foreigners that is). Most of these teenagers got very little education, and looking at your english i think you fit this description pretty well. No offense btw. Again, there is no such thing as a 'civil war' going on in the Netherlands, this is really the most outrageous thing i read on this board . The media shows the viewer all kinds of crap and takes everything concerning muslims out of context. You just have to tune into some of the less sophisticated TV-channels (namely SBS6, for all you dutch readers) and with the information given to you by this channel you won't be able to make a decent opinion about current events.
All i want to say is that the people that are causing all this trouble are greatly outnumbered by the 'normal' thinking people like you and me, just keep that in mind.
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. The media shows the viewer all kinds of crap and takes everything concerning muslims out of context. You just have to tune into some of the less sophisticated TV-channels (namely SBS6, for all you dutch readers) and with the information given to you by this channel you won't be able to make a decent opinion about current events.
