For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:47 am Post subject: Re: What you need to know about the National Animal ID syste
coyote wrote:
Quote:
A scheme hatched by the federal government and corporate agribusiness...
I love the loaded language used by these guys. "A scheme hatched..." Makes me think of a small bald man in a darkened room cackling and rubbing his hands together.
Quote:
7. Who will bear the burden of NAIS?
Small farmers, and especially those engaged in
the New Agriculture ("permaculture" or
"sustainable agriculture"). First, they will be
forced to pay for NAIS, at least in part. Second,
they will be forced to work for NAIS...
I couldn't find much on this issue from mainstream news, and nothing from AP. I don't think it's much of an issue. What I did find suggests that registration is free, and that federal compulsion won't go into effect until 2008.
Coyote,
I take it when the time comes for all of us to have microchips jammed up our asses you'll be the first one in line to bend over?
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6141 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:56 am Post subject: Re: What you need to know about the National Animal ID syste
The Feds will make me tag my hens only over my cold, dead body. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6141 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: Re: What you need to know about the National Animal ID syste
coyote wrote:
Shannymara wrote:
You don't think being forced to have your chickens implanted with microchips is much of an issue?
No, not really, no more than vehicle or gun registration, or census taking. Something to keep an eye on, but that's about it. Avian flu and mad cow disease... now those are some issues.
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: What you need to know about the National Animal ID syste
I was talking to an actual farmer of cattle and other meats, and he believes that this thing will be completely ineffective, since it will be difficult for anyone to enforce. After the mad cow scare, there were laws that were passed to make emphasize better inspection and a variety of other things that would prevent mad cow from happening. Despite the new laws, they are rarely followed and enforced. Of course, the source of mad cow comes from inferior, tainted stock used by businessmen masquerading as farmers, who have more power than small farmers, so they can easily dodge any new laws with their plants in Washington.
Small farmers are getting raped by paperwork, and have to show the true price of their products since, unlike the businesses that advertise waste as food, they aren't subsidized by your money. So given that they have insignficant power compared to the farm industry, it may be difficult for them to avoid this law. As for non-farmers who have a chicken or two, this would probably be very difficult to enforce. What are they going to do, send helicopters around, attempting to look for suspect chicken coups? They'll have get on their knees and pray to the Chinese to keep financing their ability to attempt to run these absurd operations. If it is a smashing success, you had best take advantage of the second amendment; otherwise you'll be letting the terrorists win.
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: What you need to know about the National Animal ID syste
This is a big deal in wisconsin, I think it may have even all started here. First off, the amish are terribly upset. They feel their way of life is being systematically rubbed out...they cannot afford it financially, and secondly, it goes against their beliefs. This is the mark of the beast in their mind. And they are convinced that it is only a small leap of faith to believe that they government will be requiring people to tag their children in much the same way...quite frankly, I am with them on this one.
The way this thing has unfolded is scary. First the registering of farms was voluntary. Then it became mandatory, and the tagging of your animals was voluntary...Now the tagging of your animals is mandatory.
It is very unfair to the small farmer...the cost of tagging 2000 chickens is unreasonable...but somehow I bet that Cargill Meats will somehow manage to get a law passed that says if you have over 5000 chickens, you can get a group license.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11991 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: What you need to know about the National Animal ID syste
They can tag my chickens if they will kiss each chicken individually on the ass. Otherwise, I guess I'll just have to go to jail. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: What you need to know about the National Animal ID syste
coyote wrote:
No, not really, no more than vehicle or gun registration
I will agree with you in so much as there is no federal gun registration in the US (only in a few huge cities that are utterly unlivable anyway). If the BATF was to decide to start registering and microchipping guns on it's own without any act of Congress or any public debate, then yes that would be equally concerning.
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1701 Location: East of Eden
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: What you need to know about the National Animal ID syste
MattSavinar wrote:
Coyote,
I take it when the time comes for all of us to have microchips jammed up our asses you'll be the first one in line to bend over?
Best,
Matt
Once again, loaded language.
If the government tries to "jam a microchip up my ass" I will be among the first to pick up a gun. But that's not going to happen. This is a completely unrelated process, intended to help contain a probable future outbreak of avian flu among domesticated birds, and mad cow disease among bovines. I do hope you recognize avian flu as a serious issue that does require some preparation? All respect, Matt, but I'll take addressing a real issue over fear of an imagined one. Peace. _________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1701 Location: East of Eden
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: What you need to know about the National Animal ID syste
Heineken wrote:
coyote wrote:
Shannymara wrote:
You don't think being forced to have your chickens implanted with microchips is much of an issue?
No, not really, no more than vehicle or gun registration, or census taking. Something to keep an eye on, but that's about it. Avian flu and mad cow disease... now those are some issues.
If you were a farmer, you'd feel differently.
Possibly. I don't really have an argument for that. _________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6141 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: What you need to know about the National Animal ID syste
I agree with the earlier poster who said it was unenforceable. Even if it were, Big Brother lacks the resources.
My poultry area is hidden deep in the woods. The Feds don't even know it's there. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:40 am Post subject: Re: What you need to know about the National Animal ID syste
Quote:
This is a completely unrelated process, intended to help contain a probable future outbreak of avian flu among domesticated birds, and mad cow disease among bovines.
Horseshit. If they cared about whatever animal catching avian flu, then they would force the meat factories to rearrange everything in a way that would actually be sanitary. The reason diseases like mad cow and avian flu emerge is because of general unsanitary living conditions.
So when there is a uniform, inferior stock of whatever animal like in factory farms, these are the most likely to be infected with the flu; they are already in miserable condition to begin and to describe them as sickly would be an understatement. Animals that are allowed to roam, play, Fark, and are of a more diverse breed aren't at as much risk, since they are in better shape and have greater resistance to any sickness. So if the government wanted to contain bird flu, then they would kill off the factory farm stock in order prevent an excellent vector from being active.
Of course, doing these essentially means that these businesses would have to start over from scratch, probably meaning bankruptcy; the cost of quality control for such a large number of livestock would be insane, and probably impossible, and it'll be a bit difficult to sell your product if it has been burned up. Doing something sensible means less profit for the people making this law.
This law exists to serve the businessmen masquerading as farmers. All of the costs will be sent to the small farmers, making life for them even more difficult than it already is. In the case of a birdflu outbreak, they can simply say that non-industrial livestock is to blame, exterminate the newly tagged and tracked animals, and make you forever dependent on their waste that's advertised as food. They'll make more money since they'll have no competition, and everyone else just gets an extra wrap of chains.
If they try to use the cops to enforce this, they'll just drown in their own waste and inefficiency. Animals can be concealed with enough effort. People can also start raising animals that aren't mentioned in the new law.
Even if this is able to be enforced, there will be plenty of clever tactics to combat this Fark. It's easier for people to improvise with what they have, while the enemy needs quite a bit of complexity just to find and tag one chicken.
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1701 Location: East of Eden
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: Re: What you need to know about the National Animal ID syste
Itch wrote:
Quote:
This is a completely unrelated process, intended to help contain a probable future outbreak of avian flu among domesticated birds, and mad cow disease among bovines.
Horseshit...
Yours is a vastly better argument, and one that I believe has some merit. If there is any conspiracy we have to worry about from our government, it is the continuance of the big-business economic status quo.
I was going to argue with your point about free range chickens, since I'd heard on the news that they are actually more likely to catch avian flu from wild migratory birds. But then I did some research. I knew living conditions were bad for commercial chickens, but I had no idea how bad. These are quotes from just one site...
Quote:
I believe I am qualified to give witness on the subject of cruelty involved in today's broiler chicken Industry, because of the detailed information I have gathered about that industry since 1984. This information has been obtained in the main through first-hand experience, by studying the scientific literature and talking to experts, and by following the industry's own literature closely...
Quote:
To supply material for its video "Chicken for Dinner?" Chickens' Lib purchased several day-old broiler-type chicks from a commercial hatchery and kept them for their natural lives, filming them weekly for the first 40 days (the most usual slaughter age for broilers). My observations of these and the other birds have led me to conclude that the modern broiler chicken is a genetic freak, the product of generations of selection for fast growth. This selection has shown a marked lack of concern, on the part or poultry scientists, for the birds' well-being. Birds slaughtered at only a few weeks of age are frequently diseased, lifeless and crippled. Those kept for a little longer than the usual seven weeks or less suffer from painful and crippling leg weaknesses to an even greater degree.
The incidence of crippling leg weakness in broilers is now acknowledged, and the Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWN) has suggested to the industry that it should be in a position to show a significant improvement in the health status of broilers, re. leg weakness /lameness by the end of a five year period. (1)
Common diseases in broilers include ascites, fatty liver and kidney syndrome (FLKS), acute death syndrome, staphylococcal arthritis, E coli septicaemia, iriectious bursal disease (`Gumboro disease') and infectious stunting syndrome (ISS). Diseases which may remain subclinical yet cause serious diseases in humans eating contaminated meat include salmonellosis, listeriosis and campylobacteriosis. Botulism in cattle fed contaminated ensiled poultry litter has been suggested as a possible danger to human health. Under the general heading of LEG WEAKNESS/ LAMENESS the Farm Animal Welfare Council lists, in its 1992 Report on the broiler Industry, eleven of the most common conditions affecting broilers, plus six under a heading of miscellaneous. NB This Report excluded the breeding stock.
Quote:
In addition to problems largely arising from their genetic make-up, the birds' living conditions are unacceptable, being unsuited to the birds' needs, and insanitary. Broilers are not of course caged; they suffer from a completely different range of welfare problems to those encountered by battery hens, but the problems are, arguably, as great. Not only the young birds reared for meat suffer - CL/FAWN has exposed the severity of the feed restriction imposed on parent stock birds. Adult birds would fail to reproduce satisfactorily if fed ad lib., so are kept in a state of acute hunger for extended periods. Diseases and injuries caused or exacerbated by living conditions in the windowless controlled-environment sheds include hock burns, ulcerated feet, poor feathering, heat stress, and injuries caused by birds becoming trapped in automatic feed devices. Conditions in broiler sheds which give cause or concern to welfarists, since they may cause distress or actual pain include dim lighting, inadequate ventilation, filthy `capped' litter, overcrowding and the impossibility of properly inspecting the stock, as is required by law in the Welfare of Livestock (Intensive units) Regulations 1978. (2)
Also: chicken manure used as cattle food? That sounds a bit dangerous for feed manufacturers to be handling, considering how avian flu is spread...
Dan Nagengast: Chicken Manure as Cattle Food
None of these is a mainstream news source (couldn't find any), and some contain religious rhetoric that I find unhelpful -- however, I can't argue with the photographs. So, it appears that even though free range chickens may be the first to catch avian flu from wild birds, nevertheless if an outbreak occurs in one of those commercial "farms" (I now use the term in quotes until i can figure out a more accurate one), it could be much more disastrous in those dangerous conditions. Interesting... I'll have to do some more research -- and think about switching to free-range chickens for dinner. _________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: What you need to know about the National Animal ID syste
Thanks, coyote. I'm glad you've taken an interest in the matter.
Those industrial chickens are no good. But I'd also suggest watching out for the term "free range." Labels like "free range," "all-natural," and "organic" are marketing terms that don't have much detail attached to them. A free range could be a gravel pit that is the size of a prison cell, where the chickens are allowed to stay for a few hours before they are crammed back into the cages. All-natural is absent of X, but is tainted with the the rest of the alphabet. The organic label has been heavily watered down, meaning that there are koodies being slowly introduced which were not allowed in the past. I beleive it will be completely meaningless in a few years.
Though this might not be accessible where you are, it would probably be best to buy stuff directly from the farmer. They're good people who take better standards very seriously; it is tradition for many. They have smaller operations, and have better control over quality. They have to be very careful about any disease outbeaks and sanitation conditions, because they would get shut down very quickly if things like this happen. Farmers have to pay meticulous attention to detail because they are screwed if they don't. Businessmen have things set up so they can easily get away with bad practice.
Chicken manure is one of the many...feeds that are used. Dead pets, waste grease, and other things that only microbes can digest. Chicken manure is bad in the case of bird flu, but all of these other things are a great way for other diseases to be introduced.
The other thing I thought about is how this will affect the people working there, and how it would affect the areas near the factories. The workers at the plants would have to be very well-equiped, and new sanitation infrastructure would have to be implemented if the chances of transmition are to be reduced. Of course, I wouldn't count on this happenening, since doing this means a reduction in profits.
If the government cared about bird flu and other potential disease vectors, they would crush the businessmen and their factories and reward the farmers. Of course, the businessmen are quite powerful, and probably won't be weakened until people start regularly buying from farmers. Doing so would support everyone's dietary purposes. The price is obviously higher, but your taxes used to subsidize the businessmen's operations aren't too cheap, either.
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