Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
Vexed wrote:
GT wrote:
Quote:
So what am I supposed to take away from this? There are violent people with a culture that glorifies and perpetuates that violence - if I would only welcome them into my neighborhood, give them half my salary, and put their kids in school with my younger siblings, then everything would work out great and the cycle would be broken? Get real man.
I don't really know how to respond. You don't make sense. You set up a completely artificial argument.
Your ability to generalize is fairly stupendous. ALL poor people are now, not only stupid and lazy, but violent too.
If I mention an example of a poor person who did drugs, would thay all be crack heads too?
Where have you been? The violence came from YOUR story about the kid whose dad broke the mom's arm. The "artificial argument" was exactly the CNN article that YOU posted about housing in Atlanta. You don't even remember your own posts?
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
gt1370a wrote:
If you have a statistic that shows that most people file for bankruptcy due to illness, injury, or divorce, I would like to see it. I bet *most* people file for bankruptcy because they were living beyond their means and it caught up to them, i.e., they were stupid.
But why can't you people acknowledge that if someone goes through life making bad decisions and taking the easy way out just for instant gratification (i.e., being lazy and stupid), that it will have consequences?
Ironic, because consumerism is a system that assumes exactly that, and spends vast amounts of time encouraging people to do exactly that. Then include peer pressure into the mix (the Joneses have a lot to answer for!). _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
actionreplay wrote:
What living in Europe for 30 years has taught me is that we Europeans like our social programs. We consider them very important. Maybe that's because we're used to them, maybe they are good, bad, indifferent - it's how we think.
You make a good point. One time I was in Germany, my German is real weak but I managed to have a conversation about welfare with a guy in a bar. My side basically summed up as "Why is it ok for the government to just take money from me and give it to somebody else?" and his side was "If you have more on your plate than you need, why should somebody else starve?" This, like a lot of things, boils down to a fundamental value which really cannot be argued because it's just a value. We can argue about the implementation or the details or the social outcome or whatever, but nobody will really change their mind because no matter what else, that fundamental value is still there.
Hey, I guess it's still fun to argue though. And like with my friend in Germany there, you try to make a compelling argument, agree to disagree and buy each other a beer.
Joined: Jul 18, 2005 Posts: 105 Location: London, UK
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
LadyRuby wrote:
actionreplay wrote:
What speaking to, working with and being related to many Americans, plus various visits to the US, has taught me, is that the US is very different. The view, whether or not you agree with it, is that you go to the US as an immigrant to give it your best shot, work hard, and try and suceed, and don't try and ask the govt for help.
True unless you are a large company, in which case you spend a lot of money hiring expensive lobbyists, who can make sure that the government gives you everything you ask for.
Also, please don't generalize "what an American" believes. We have very different views in this country, we are more divided on these views than ever before, so it's nearly impossible to make blanket statements about what Americans believe. Which American are you speaking of?
My apologies - it wasn't my intention to offend. You're right, I made a sweeping generalisation, and I shouldn't have done that. I wasn't trying to make a value judgement either way on more v. less govt aid - however I see my fellow Europeans often falling into the trap of assuming the US must be just like Europe and it isn't....
And my co-workers from the US are always getting endless crap from people over here about the US, which I think is unfair....
Again, my apologies, wasn't trying to offend anyone.
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
gt1370a wrote:
Hey, I guess it's still fun to argue though. And like with my friend in Germany there, you try to make a compelling argument, agree to disagree and buy each other a beer.
Or if you were the US govt you would lend him the money to buy the beer but make it a loan-condition that he sold his house. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Joined: Oct 15, 2005 Posts: 1561 Location: Portland, Oregon
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
The real issue being asked here is how big should the government safety net for the poor be? Its not a question of a safety net versus no safety net. Europe has a larger safety net and thus higher taxes while the US has a smaller safety net and lower taxes. Europe encourages egalitarianism while the US encourages incentive and ambition. Both systems have their dark sides as well- Europe's can lead to a lack of motivation while the US' system can lead to greed and hyper-individualism. Hatred of the poor can occur when certain US members believe that poverty is solely due to a lack of incentive/ambition and not to factors beyond the poor's control (i.e environment, illness, lack of resources, etc.) Just look at gt's entries. He pretty much sums that philosophy up.
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
thuja wrote:
The real issue being asked here is how big should the government safety net for the poor be? Its not a question of a safety net versus no safety net. Europe has a larger safety net and thus higher taxes while the US has a smaller safety net and lower taxes. Europe encourages egalitarianism while the US encourages incentive and ambition. Both systems have their dark sides as well- Europe's can lead to a lack of motivation while the US' system can lead to greed and hyper-individualism. Hatred of the poor can occur when certain US members believe that poverty is solely due to a lack of incentive/ambition and not to factors beyond the poor's control (i.e environment, illness, lack of resources, etc.) Just look at gt's entries. He pretty much sums that philosophy up.
You are right on. I don't know if you are American or European or what, but I think if you ever went to Wal-Mart or pretty much any chain restaurant or store, you would be appalled at how stupid and lazy the people "working" there are. And these are the majority of people with low wages and no benefits who demand that the government bail them out. Look, I acknowledge that there are bad circumstances that can screw people over, but most people in America have "access" to opportunities, they are just too stupid or lazy to do anything with them. If you don't believe me, check out these Census Bureau statistics:
Forty-six percent of all poor households own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and porch or patio.
Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens and other European cities. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television. Over half own two or more color televisions.
Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
Seventy-three percent own a microwave oven, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.
Overall, the typical American defined as poor by the government has a car, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave. He has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR or DVD player, and a stereo. He is able to obtain medical care. His home is in good repair and is not overcrowded. By his own report, his family isn't hungry, and he had sufficient funds in the past year to meet his family's essential needs. While this individual's life is not opulent, it is equally far from the popular images of dire poverty conveyed by the press, activists and politicians.
These people are not poor because of their conditions. They have sufficient resources that they could do something with their lives if they had the intelligence and motivation to do so. How do I know this? Because there are many success stories out there about people who have done just that.
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
gt1370a wrote:
These people are not poor because of their conditions. They have sufficient resources that they could do something with their lives if they had the intelligence and motivation to do so. How do I know this? Because there are many success stories out there about people who have done just that.
This argument is like saying why don't they just win the lottery or something because there are stories of people who have done this. Capitalism is a ponzi scheme, it needs poor people to do the real work. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
gt1370a wrote:
thuja wrote:
The real issue being asked here is how big should the government safety net for the poor be? Its not a question of a safety net versus no safety net. Europe has a larger safety net and thus higher taxes while the US has a smaller safety net and lower taxes. Europe encourages egalitarianism while the US encourages incentive and ambition. Both systems have their dark sides as well- Europe's can lead to a lack of motivation while the US' system can lead to greed and hyper-individualism. Hatred of the poor can occur when certain US members believe that poverty is solely due to a lack of incentive/ambition and not to factors beyond the poor's control (i.e environment, illness, lack of resources, etc.) Just look at gt's entries. He pretty much sums that philosophy up.
You are right on. I don't know if you are American or European or what, but I think if you ever went to Wal-Mart or pretty much any chain restaurant or store, you would be appalled at how stupid and lazy the people "working" there are. And these are the majority of people with low wages and no benefits who demand that the government bail them out. Look, I acknowledge that there are bad circumstances that can screw people over, but most people in America have "access" to opportunities, they are just too stupid or lazy to do anything with them. If you don't believe me, check out these Census Bureau statistics:
Forty-six percent of all poor households own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and porch or patio.
Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens and other European cities. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television. Over half own two or more color televisions.
Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
Seventy-three percent own a microwave oven, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.
Overall, the typical American defined as poor by the government has a car, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave. He has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR or DVD player, and a stereo. He is able to obtain medical care. His home is in good repair and is not overcrowded. By his own report, his family isn't hungry, and he had sufficient funds in the past year to meet his family's essential needs. While this individual's life is not opulent, it is equally far from the popular images of dire poverty conveyed by the press, activists and politicians.
These people are not poor because of their conditions. They have sufficient resources that they could do something with their lives if they had the intelligence and motivation to do so. How do I know this? Because there are many success stories out there about people who have done just that.
You think what you want to think about the poor. You are generalizing from specifics. I was actually on welfare for a short time, due to illness. I'm not lazy and am no dummy. What I found is that nearly everyone I met in the same position was similarly taxed, physically. You can be a real idiot and get ahead if you have a ton of energy. It's not "all attitude".
There are a persistant percentage of individuals who can't thrive in a highly competetive society, much as they may try. They may not have a well defined disorder, but they are working with a handicap if they have to compete with the hale and hearty types who can work 20 hours a day.
This is just a base reality. Take a good look at the general appearance of the lazy and stupid and what you'll see a majority are simply unhealthy. Some people do bring this all on themselves, but I think they're actually in the minority.
The figures Fox spouts about air conditioning are skewed. The reason air conditioning is used more today, by the poor is due to the fact most of them are in apts and they would DIE if they didn't have it in the summers.
Joined: Oct 26, 2004 Posts: 305 Location: US Empire
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
Half of us are, by definition, dumber than the other half. We're slower, less likely to succeed, sure to be taken in by every crook, department store sale and preacher that comes around looking for money. What used to pass for community, that protected our meager interests, has faded off into disconnected, wandering suburbia. When our boss and television tell us the facts... we believe, after all they're the only authority we have left that we can trust.
And you tell us we deserve to be abused, trodden on, and thrown to the wolves because we were unlucky with the gene pool, or Mom drank too much in the second trimester. Maybe we deserve what we get.
But that doesn't do anything to change the fact that you who prey on or just plain ignore the weak, the poor and the disadvantaged are made small and horrible by your lack of humanity. Maids, streetsweepers, welfare recipients and ChinaMart greeters are people just like you and me. Believe me when I say if the day comes when your company sends your job overseas, or your wife has cancer or a flood swallows your house... well, we'll just see who steps up with a hand to lift you and yours out of desperation. _________________ Gary Malcolm
US Empire
There is no alternative source for our gluttony. Power down or die.
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
gary_malcolm wrote:
Half of us are, by definition, dumber than the other half. We're slower, less likely to succeed, sure to be taken in by every crook, department store sale and preacher that comes around looking for money. What used to pass for community, that protected our meager interests, has faded off into disconnected, wandering suburbia. When our boss and television tell us the facts... we believe, after all they're the only authority we have left that we can trust.
And you tell us we deserve to be abused, trodden on, and thrown to the wolves because we were unlucky with the gene pool, or Mom drank too much in the second trimester. Maybe we deserve what we get.
But that doesn't do anything to change the fact that you who prey on or just plain ignore the weak, the poor and the disadvantaged are made small and horrible by your lack of humanity. Maids, streetsweepers, welfare recipients and ChinaMart greeters are people just like you and me. Believe me when I say if the day comes when your company sends your job overseas, or your wife has cancer or a flood swallows your house... well, we'll just see who steps up with a hand to lift you and yours out of desperation.
Thank you Gary. That was beautifully written- a real keeper. What a great heart you have.
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
gt1370a wrote:
These people are not poor because of their conditions. They have sufficient resources that they could do something with their lives if they had the intelligence and motivation to do so. How do I know this? Because there are many success stories out there about people who have done just that.
And I'm willing to bet that there are just as many, if not more, stories about individuals born into comfortable, middle-class or better families that can just float through secondary school and college to "earn" a degree (or not) that they leverage to build a nice, cozy life with minimal effort.
So, which body of anectodal evidence wins?
There is something going on here that transcends a simplified analysis of incentive and intelligence being enough to facilitate the upward mobility of anyone in this country. Try selling that gospel to the 2nd and 3rd generation migrant farmers in Texas or Florida. You know, the same ones from families that earn at most 8K annually and whom are forced to uproot their whole families to head north each year to earn some more scratch at the expense of their kids' educations. I suppose it's easier to label the lot of them as either insufficiently motivated and or intelligent to warrant a better life.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12638 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
gt1370a wrote:
If you have a statistic that shows that most people file for bankruptcy due to illness, injury, or divorce, I would like to see it.
No problem:
"In 2001, 1.458 million American families filed for bankruptcy. To investigate medical contributors to bankruptcy, we surveyed 1,771 personal bankruptcy filers in five federal courts and subsequently completed in-depth interviews with 931 of them. About half cited medical causes, which indicates that 1.92.2 million Americans (filers plus dependents) experienced medical bankruptcy. Among those whose illnesses led to bankruptcy, out-of-pocket costs averaged $11,854 since the start of illness; 75.7 percent had insurance at the onset of illness. Medical debtors were 42 percent more likely than other debtors to experience lapses in coverage. Even middle-class insured families often fall prey to financial catastrophe when sick."
Joined: Oct 15, 2005 Posts: 1561 Location: Portland, Oregon
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
[quote="Ludi"]
gt1370a wrote:
we surveyed 1,771 personal bankruptcy filers in five federal courts and subsequently completed in-depth interviews with 931 of them. About half cited medical causes,
But I thought all poor people were stupid and lazy- that must mean people who get injured, hurt or sick must have been really dumb to get that way. I guess they deserve their lot in life then.
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Why do Americans hate poor people?
[quote="thuja"]
Ludi wrote:
gt1370a wrote:
we surveyed 1,771 personal bankruptcy filers in five federal courts and subsequently completed in-depth interviews with 931 of them. About half cited medical causes,
But I thought all poor people were stupid and lazy- that must mean people who get injured, hurt or sick must have been really dumb to get that way. I guess they deserve their lot in life then.
Point taken about the bankrupticies - but this question was a side issue. I have repeatedly said that I acknowledge that there are circumstances which can cause people to become poor. In this case, illness, injury, divorce, whatever resulted in 2.2 million Americans becoming poor (or at least declaring bankruptcy, I don't know if they were poor prior to that or not). What about the rest of the poor? How many are there? According to the Census Bureau numbers it's 12.5% or about 37.5 million below the poverty line. What's their reason?
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