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Peakoil.com :: View topic - No wonder the public is misinformed about energy
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No wonder the public is misinformed about energy
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Pfish
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:36 pm    Post subject: No wonder the public is misinformed about energy Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Because of the journalist who inform them...

Courtesy of Bill Walker

http://www.lewrockwell.com/walker/walker15.html
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Free
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed.... Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

What I find most remarkable about PO-ignorance is that it knows no boundaries of political flavour, class, income, profession.

If it's the "libruls" and anti-establishment conspiracy theorists who claim that PO is just a scam of the oil industry and US-warmongers, or the rightwingers and creationists who claim that, like global warming, it's just a scam of treehugging hippies who hate the American way of life and Baby Jesus - if it's the hillbilly trucker who says it's all a conspiracy of Arabs, corrupt politicians or communists, or a Wall Street stockbroker who is mad at the PO-"intellectual molesters" - they are all unified in their stupidity and denial.

That PO-awareness is meeting such a broad coalition of fierce resistance is just giving it more credit in my eyes.

Of course, on the other hand, it could be an indication that we are the ones who are nuts - actually, we are nuts for sure, since the majority of people decides what's nuts and not facts... Shocked
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Starvid
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed.... Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Jesus Christ people are stupid.

While it is true there are insane amounts of coal, uranium, thorium and deuterium out there, you can't put them in your car!

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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BabyPeanut
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:01 pm    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed.... Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Starvid wrote:
While it is true there are insane amounts of coal, uranium, thorium and deuterium out there, you can't put them in your car!

Worse is how to fly an airplane without an energy source that's as dense as the highly refined kerosene that's used now. Using a bulkier fuel will eat up cargo capacity.

Quote:
NASA launches hydrogen airplane study (link)
...the significantly lower density of hydrogen causes problems with the fuel tanks. In order to reduce the space needed for the storage of hydrogen, there are plans to store the fuel in liquid form in its designated tanks at 20 degrees Kelvin (minus 253 Degrees Celsius). But even then is the specific volume of hydrogen twelve times larger than that of kerosene. If you take into account that only a third of the weight of kerosene has to be transported, a tank, which is four times bigger than that for a kerosene aircraft, is needed for a hydrogen airplane.
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nth
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed.... Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Actually, he buys into the fact we may run into Peak Oil. He just claims we should not be afraid of it. We will just innovate our way out of it with new inventions.

I am not sure, but I believe before we started to use oil, prices for fuel did spike.
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dub_scratch
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed.... Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Quote:
The truth is that our current energy use is minuscule. The entire world burns about 345 Quads of fossil fuel every year. Known coal reserves contain 200,000 Quads, oil shales 10 million quads, the deuterium in the ocean 10 trillion Quads. (Of course we are no longer allowed to think about using the huge thorium reserves… if you are younger than 30, you probably don’t even know what thorium is). To believe that energy shortages are our biggest problem requires very special blinders.

...and what about the quads in hurricane Katrina... or the nearby sun... or all the methane farts emanating from all the assholes in the world?

We can point to all kinds of things that are of concentrated energy in one form or another, and say "look, energy." Sure! Energy is nearly infinite in the universe, and the amount we use is "minuscule" by comparison. But what so many of the Julian Simon creed painfully ignore is any concept of usable concentrated energy. Peak Oil matters because it is a peak in a highly usable energy source at a high daily ration of availability. 10 trillion Quads of deuterium in the ocean is worthless if we have little and/or slow access to that form of energy.
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0mar
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed.... Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

It's all about rate.

It's like saying you have 10 trillion dollars in the bank, but can only withdraw 15 cents a day. How much money do you actually have?
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some_guy282
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed.... Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

0mar wrote:
It's all about rate.

It's like saying you have 10 trillion dollars in the bank, but can only withdraw 15 cents a day. How much money do you actually have?


That's exactly the same example I've used in my head to think of oil shale. I don't remember reading it anywhere else though. It's a good example.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:06 am    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed.... Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

BabyPeanut wrote:

Worse is how to fly an airplane without an energy source that's as dense as the highly refined kerosene that's used now. Using a bulkier fuel will eat up cargo capacity.


Jet engines are actually fairly robust from what some engineers have told me... keep in mind that Kerosene is a relatively nonflammable liquid compared to gasoline or Diesel... Call it a hunch (haven't had a chance to ask said engineers) but I have a feeling that biodiesel would still be usable. Not as cheap, sure, but still usable.

Edit: I am actually slightly mistaken, Jet fuel is typically a refined Kerosene with a much lower flash point... Hopefully if refined kerosene can do the job than perhaps refined biofuels could be made do the job.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:20 am    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed.... Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Starvid wrote:

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.


Kinda like saying herpes isnt an STD, its a cold sore that ended up in the wrong place eh?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:36 am    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed.... Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Pherlin wrote:
BabyPeanut wrote:

Worse is how to fly an airplane without an energy source that's as dense as the highly refined kerosene that's used now. Using a bulkier fuel will eat up cargo capacity.


Jet engines are actually fairly robust from what some engineers have told me... keep in mind that Kerosene is a relatively nonflammable liquid compared to gasoline or Diesel... Call it a hunch (haven't had a chance to ask said engineers) but I have a feeling that biodiesel would still be usable. Not as cheap, sure, but still usable.

Edit: I am actually slightly mistaken, Jet fuel is typically a refined Kerosene with a much lower flash point... Hopefully if refined kerosene can do the job than perhaps refined biofuels could be made do the job.


No reason why Fisher-Tropsch kero won't work, though it is more expensive than sucking it out of the ground. The cool thing with F-T is you can tune it to get just about whatever product you want.
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shakespear1
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:51 am    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed about energy Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Quote:
We will just innovate our way out of it


This is the mantra of everyone that I have spoken to about PO. I keep saying "I hope you are right, because if NOT ..." Cool
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MacG
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:56 am    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed about energy Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Naahh, Bill Walker provide a pretty crude mix of writing. Sometimes its entertaining and thought provoking like this, sometimes it's rightout stupid and full of easily checked misconceptions like this. Anyhow, the libertarians and anarchists will have a terrible time supporting their ideologies when depletion set in. Pretty sad, because they have a lot of good thinking also.
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Battle_Scarred_Galactico
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:18 am    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed about energy Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Ah, the number #1 "solution" is trotted out again for another airing. Sit on your butt and hope that someone bails you out.

I can't remember who it was but someone on this board said the reason that this attitude is SO popular is because it totally removes the individual from any responsibility what so ever, realizing this it's easy to see why it's the posistion of 99%+ of people.

Whoever it was, was completley correct.
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aahala
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: No wonder the public is misinformed about energy Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

There ought to be a publication standard for anyone writing short articles
on energy directed to the general public. The disclaimer at the top should
be:

"Everything you think you know about energy is partially false; a portion
of what you think you know may be partially true."
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