Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: The great italian riots (and we're winning...)
It is about time they modernise the train system though.
I'm sorry to say this Barbara but if I go by my Italian rail experience I would rate Trenitalia among the worst in Europe.
Last week I had 2 hrs delay between Pisa and Vinci, on the way back (only) half an hour. And that's a half-an-hour trip. In fact I have to meet the first train that actually departs on time and arrives on time.
It just amazes me how a country that can make those bright red sportscars that do over 300 km/hr yet completely fail to make a train go faster than 30 km/hr.
Luckily the food and the people make more than up for any travel inconvenience.
Joined: May 26, 2004 Posts: 1195 Location: Zoorope
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: The great italian riots (and we're winning...)
smiley,
thet's exactly what people in Valsusa are asking for. Trains all over the country, but those going from/to big cities, are in the worst state. And they want to throw away 20 billions over a luxury train ready in 2020!!!!
About freight traffic... well, not 1 truck will be taken from the highway thanks to that train. This because they didn't plan any of the infrastructure needed for rail transport.
That stupid train is for (rich) passengers only, not commerce. _________________ **no english mothertongue**
--------
Objects in the rear view mirror
are closer than they appear.
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: The great italian riots (and we're winning...)
No matter what happens, the project will never be completed. See the International Space Station and many other examples. The people of Italy are right to desire more cost effective and widespread infrastructure improvements nationwide, which can actually be completed. _________________ "The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air... Much that once was, is lost..." - Galadriel
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:21 am Post subject: Re: The great italian riots (and we're winning...)
Barbara wrote:
About the minister: his company simply changed owner when he became minister. The owner now is... his wife.
Yes, I'm ashamed of this!
I guess when the Italians say, "Keep it in the family" they're not joking.
Quote:
Also: the railroad is scheduled for the opening in 2020. Can you imagine?
2020 may seem like a long ways from now but in reality for a huge project like this, if they actually finish this project in time I'd be surprised. A mega-project usually takes 20 years to complete:
10 years in the courtroom +
10 years actual construction time
BTW why are the environmentalists against this idea? I thought they were strong supporters of high speed rail?
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:22 am Post subject: Re: The great italian riots (and we're winning...)
Nothing in Poland was mentioned as it might give the people here some ideas. There is a fight brewing though about early pensions for miners. With the last government the miners won a lifetime pension plan if they completed 25 years of work in the mines. The new government wants to take this away. Well the interesting part here is that the miners ( mainly in the south ) came to Warsaw and rioted, which convinved the gov. that this could all end very bad, and gave in. I guess they will need to do it again if they are to hold on to it.
_________________ Men argue, nature acts !
Voltaire
"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:41 am Post subject: Re: The great italian riots (and we're winning...)
cube wrote:
BTW why are the environmentalists against this idea? I thought they were strong supporters of high speed rail?
Adolescent technogeeks who read Popular Science are strong supporters of high speed rail. Smart environmentalists realize that if speeds lower than 50kph are acceptable for the container ships that carry world freight, they are also adequate for rail freight. As for passengers, most business travel is unnecessary and tourists like going slower. That is why cruise ships are so popular and even tourist Zeppelins are back in service.
Forget high speed, what the world needs is a more extensive rail network. _________________ "The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air... Much that once was, is lost..." - Galadriel
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:48 am Post subject: Re: The great italian riots (and we're winning...)
cube wrote:
BTW why are the environmentalists against this idea? I thought they were strong supporters of high speed rail?
Adolescent technogeeks who read Popular Science are strong supporters of high speed rail. Smart environmentalists realize that if speeds lower than 50kph are acceptable for the container ships that carry world freight, they are also adequate for rail freight. As for passengers, most business travel is unnecessary and tourists like going slower. That is why cruise ships are so popular and even tourist Zeppelins are back in service.
Forget high speed, what the world needs is a more extensive rail network. _________________ "The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air... Much that once was, is lost..." - Galadriel
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:12 am Post subject: Re: The great italian riots (and we're winning...)
The TGV is not a luxury train .... even though I cannot comment about the utility of building a TGV line instead of modernizing the rest of the railroad infrastructure ...... I can comment on the usefulness of having high speed rail. My TGV experience consists of two roundtrips inside France (Paris->Lyon, Paris->Montepellier). It is like any other regular train; the passengers were ordinary citizens not some supra-rich tourists.
Modernizing the railroad infrastructure is a pre-requisite for having a TGV. After all, these are dual use trains ... if the line has not been electricified one can use the diesel engines (the speed does go down tremendously though). _________________ "Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:50 am Post subject: Re: The great italian riots (and we're winning...)
MicroHydro wrote:
cube wrote:
BTW why are the environmentalists against this idea? I thought they were strong supporters of high speed rail?
Adolescent technogeeks who read Popular Science are strong supporters of high speed rail. Smart environmentalists realize that if speeds lower than 50kph are acceptable for the container ships that carry world freight, they are also adequate for rail freight. As for passengers, most business travel is unnecessary and tourists like going slower. That is why cruise ships are so popular and even tourist Zeppelins are back in service.
Forget high speed, what the world needs is a more extensive rail network.
Not in the era of trucks, cars and planes. The rail system has had to get faster to survive. High speed lines tend to pay for themselves, simply upgrading a line tends to cost more in the long run. Look at the UK's west coast main line 15bn Euros spent for a modest 15mph upgrade and slightly more paths. It's been admitted that it was the wrong way to go, upgrading current routes is disruptive and difficult. The WCML is Europe's busiest trunk main line and a lot of the money paid out was compensation to operators. The project has been a disaster, cost 3 times more than forecast and the maximum speed of 140 mph had to be dropped to 125mph on the grounds of cost – the second time it’s happened in the UK. During the upgrade rail lost a huge market share to air, however traffic is just about back up to where it was before the upgrade begun.
The first French TGV line (Paris-Lyon) paid for itelf in less than 10 years, the traffic doubled and they had to double deck passenger trains and reduce the signalling headway down from 5 to 3 minutes to run more trains as passengers switched from planes and cars, to trains. The line has a 15% rate of return, and powered by French nuclear and hydro stations, throwing out a minimum Co2 comapred to oil powered planes and cars.
On the London-Paris route rail has a 78% market share, the low cost airlines have virtually given up.
I did some checking on this TGV Turin project last night, it appears the finishing date is 2015 and the route is part of the Trans-European Networks (TENs). Don't forget this is about opening up eastern France to Italy and Eastern Europe - a new, direct, trade link; it's one of many lines currently under construction right now. It is also built for freight.
As for rich people using it, I've never heard anything so silly. As someone that's been on the TGV network the passengers are regular people looking for an alternative to cars and planes, something that will be increasingly important in the post oil era.
BTW HSR is cheaper to build that conventional rail with gradients up to 1 in 28 or 3.5%...steeper than motorway/freeway gradients and generally use the space of an ordinary highway (1 lane each way). The high speeds and high torque of electric trains means they 'rush' the gradients. Thus, leaving classic networks for communting and freight.
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:26 am Post subject: Re: The great italian riots (and we're winning...)
I can't really comment on this particular project, but I do know in general MOST electric trains are used for passenger, not freight travel. The primary concern with freight is cost not speed. Most customers expecting a package wouldn't mind waiting a little longer if they could save a buck, thus that explains why freight vehicles are designed to go slow to keep costs to a minimum.
HSR (high speed rail) doesn't always pay for it's way. Even in Japan (one of the most rail friendly countries on the planet) some Shinkansen routes are money losers.
I think MicroHydro is onto something. A HSR is a tradeoff. They cost more to build and operate thus that limits how many miles/km of track can be built. Basically the taxpayers have a choice...what do they want:
1) A train that goes really fast but has limited coverage
or
2) A train that goes at regular speed but has a wider area of coverage
I'll be honest and admit the idea of a HSR (using a single standard) that connects all the major cities of Europe sounds "interesting".....that's the geeky side of me talking.....realistically speaking that's 50 years away (at least)
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:40 am Post subject: Re: The great italian riots (and we're winning...)
cube wrote:
Basically the taxpayers have a choice...what do they want:
1) A train that goes really fast but has limited coverage
or
2) A train that goes at regular speed but has a wider area of coverage
Why can't they have both? Most small cities in Europe have some semblance of train service, whether it be a local 2-car engine or regional rail. These typically feed into the faster, more limited networks at stations in the larger cities like Paris and Lyon, where HSR competes well with traffic-choked autoroutes and security-plagued airlines. If you compare rail networks with road networks, obviously a hierarchy emerges with the road networks that would translate favorably into rail networks, with the streetcar/light rail mode being the most local form of transit, while HSR represents the national form of transit. _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: The great italian riots (and we're winning...)
emersonbiggins wrote:
cube wrote:
Basically the taxpayers have a choice...what do they want:
1) A train that goes really fast but has limited coverage
or
2) A train that goes at regular speed but has a wider area of coverage
Why can't they have both?...
Money will buy you just about anything in life with the exception of immortality and love. However I hear that while you may not be able to buy the latter you can rent it.
Getting serious now, sure they can have both.....if they're willing to pay for it. The last time I checked Europe's economy was stuck in neutral. Actually the "developed economies" Germany, France, Britain, Italy....was in a funk. But the less developed countries Eastern Europe and Spain seem to be enjoying robust economic growth. In fact Spain is building an HSR right now.
The next major HSR expansion will not be in Europe but Asia. China is planning a Beijing to Shanghai HSR and as of this moment they seem to be much more commited to the idea then this Italian project.
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: The great italian riots (and we're winning...)
cube wrote:
I can't really comment on this particular project, but I do know in general MOST electric trains are used for passenger, not freight travel. The primary concern with freight is cost not speed. Most customers expecting a package wouldn't mind waiting a little longer if they could save a buck, thus that explains why freight vehicles are designed to go slow to keep costs to a minimum.
HSR (high speed rail) doesn't always pay for it's way. Even in Japan (one of the most rail friendly countries on the planet) some Shinkansen routes are money losers.
I think MicroHydro is onto something. A HSR is a tradeoff. They cost more to build and operate thus that limits how many miles/km of track can be built. Basically the taxpayers have a choice...what do they want:
1) A train that goes really fast but has limited coverage
or
2) A train that goes at regular speed but has a wider area of coverage
I'll be honest and admit the idea of a HSR (using a single standard) that connects all the major cities of Europe sounds "interesting".....that's the geeky side of me talking.....realistically speaking that's 50 years away (at least)
Most freight trains in mainland Europe are Electric...Neverthless as I said upgrades/slower lines aren't always cheaper and very often HS lines relieve classic routes of traffic, therefore freeing up paths for freight. Europe has a mixed traffic network, unlike the US, which isn't conducive to mixing high speed passengers and slow moving freight. So you either built new passenger lines or freight ones. As it stands Europe’s high speed rail network is getting to be fairly complete. Germany, Belgium, Spain, Italy, France and other countries have been building them for the last 20 years or so, there are several other lines under construction in Spain and France right now and other proposals in Holland and the UK. People often think of new lines as speed upgrades, whereas capacity is important too. Remember – and this is the case especially in the UK – most railways were built in the Victorian era before speed was really important. Therefore a lot of the network is limited by flat junctions that limit capacity. Moving passenger trains off onto new lines leaves freight running at 60-75mph at homogenous speeds, increasing overall capacity greatly.
The alternative is the spend 7bn Euros on an extra two lanes on a roads over 50 miles.
Meanwhile on another TGV line, France's last colony of a rare and protected breed of tortoise may force the route of a high-speed TGV train line to be altered.
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