THE American Form of Government Thread (merged)

venky · Intermediate Crude Joined: Mar 13, 2005 Posts: 824

I got this idea from the debate on the gun thread. And I dont want this to be another repeat of the pro and anti gun arguments, but want to look an issue that is indirectly related. It is especially relevant in the US but also in other countries, especially post peak oil.
Basically it has been obvious that in the past few years the US government has been infringing on the rights of its citizens in the name of fighting terror. While I think some of the reports have been exaggerated; there is reason to be concerned. Some of the provisions of the Patriot Act are alarming.

Now basically I wanted to explore what options do ordinary citizens have in the face of a government that is rolling back on the rights of its citizens and perhaps moving towards a dictatorship. I am not saying that is the direction the US is headed.....I do think the reactions of some are paranoid; however the trend is worrying in some ways.
Now the power at the hands of the government of a modern nation state is huge. The disparity between the weaponry available to the population and the military has never been greater; inspite of the rather liberal gun laws in the US. My personal opinion is that if the Government takes away your habeas corpus; having a rifle in the closet is not going to help you. Again thats just my opinion but lets not go there.

Sure its possible that a well armed citizenry can rise up against the Government or occupiers; like for example look at Iraq. But again that requires funds, a strongly motivated and cohesion amongst the insurgents; a unifying ideology, organization and logistics and perhaps outside help. Its more then just taking out a gun in the closet and shooting at the first signs of authority.........And the cost to the society is terrible; again looking at Iraq.
I think more important then the right to bear arms is the institutions that have served over the past few centuries to protect the individual against the arbritrary power of the Government; like the habeas corpus, an independent judiciary and media, seperation of powers, accountability.........etc. I think if these get eroded over time as seems to be trend in the face of an apathetic population; there are few options for the citizenry against the Government in this day and age Sad

And again this is not a sneaky anti-gun thread; I made my views clear earlier and I am interested in looking at this topic.
_________________
I play the cards I'm dealt, though I sometimes bluff.

Doly · Expert Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 4035

I think it's a very interesting point you are raising here, venky.
In my opinion, the most important freedom that needs to be maintained to keep a country free is freedom of speech. With freedom of speech, you can talk about any other issues that you are worried about and organize some kind of resistance easily. Without it, things get much more difficult. One of the first things every dictatorship has done is first, to control the media, and then, to establish censorship. And the US seems to be going down a slippery slope in that respect. Luckily, the Internet will always allow freedom of speech for those who need it.

What can you do about worrying tendencies towards dictatorship? Good question. I agree with you that guns are unlikely to be the answer, among other things, because it's difficult to re-establish lost rights with the only aid of a gun. And that is exactly what you want to do.
The way forward, in my opinion, is to create alternative means of getting those same rights. Something like the underground that gave slaves some amount of freedom in the South. For example, let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that you are worried about the amount of information you are required to give the government. The way to counteract this would be creating the means to provide the government successfully with false information, so their information is useless.

max_power29

I wish I had the answers. It seems most americans dont care. The question is how do you get them to care?
In history, when similar things happened. The point where a critical mass of people "woke up" was too late. Generally that was at the point where the dictatorship literally arrived on their door steps.

...As far as small arms goes, of course the first ones to resist will be tranced on. But if the three million + gun owners can manage to take one or two government thugs with them each time the thugs arrest a dissenter; maybe the morale can be stripped from the government thugs. I mean, I bet no matter how evil they are they want to go home at the end of their shift instead of dying, ending up in a wheel chair, or shitting through a bag on their hips for the rest of their lives. I mean 500 jack booted thugs quit in new orleans when the going got tough. add this to a future insolvent federal government (Wiemar and zimbabwe type inflation) and maybe their is a chance. I think this is the only chance because of the above mentioned "apathy until its too late syndrome"

You can not save people who do not want to be. That torture anti-habeus corpus act was passed last week and nobody cared except for a few people on the internet. Not one ploitician voted against it! Sad

In fact it was praised in the main stream media as being a fantastic praiseworthy accomplishment in what little media attention it got.

NEOPO

I do not feel the internet is "safe" or otherwise off limits by any means and I believe it is just a matter of time before dissention here is quelled.
Freedom of speech is important and without it none of us would be any more educated about the truth then yer average sheeple yet ultimately "talk is cheap".
The freedom to arm ourselves, organize into the "M" word and then to "take out" a tyranical.GOV was the most important right we HAD.

The "bang heard round the world" i.e. oklahoma and the subsequent passing of the OMNIBUS crime bill was the final blow to that right although few if any of us believe something like that would ever succeed.
The omnibus crime bill was going to fail by a wide margin and then "BANG!"- Elementary.
Some people call it paranoia - I call it awareness.
_________________
It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.

gego · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Mar 03, 2005 Posts: 1334

Look at the trend, which in this case is not your friend.
The trend is for more and more goverrnment and less and less freedom. This is not a recent event. This is a long term trend going back to the beginning of the US, which eventually resulted in an attempted abandonment of the Federal government in the Civil War. In recent years this trend seems to me to be accelerating, and it is not limited to the Republicans. Both parties are cut from similar fabric; it is just a matter of which part of your lives they choose to expand their controls into. It seems we are on a similar path taken by Germany which eventually allowed Hitler to take dictatorial power. In Iraq today the US is doing to the people similar things that Hitler did to the countries he invaded.

I think that political repression in the USA is not perceived at a sufficient level for people to be bothered. Half of the population is not even interested enough in politics to vote, and the ones that do vote are mostly voting for more government, not less. I don't think that people will ever significantly stand up against government because they think there is too much government.
When life becomes miserable from economics, then people will complain, but the form of their complaint is that they will want government to do something, not quit doing something. I think that when the post peak disaster hits and people are freezing and starving, then there will be rebellion; I can't imagine anything better coming out of rebellion; more likely, it would solitify the dictatorial powers of those already in power.

All in all, I think freedom does not stand a chance until our numbers fall back to under 1/2 billion, at which time we will be spread out enough and poverty stricken enough that it will not be worth the efforts of the thugs in government to plunder any but the most easy targets.

gego · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Mar 03, 2005 Posts: 1334

Particularly damaging in the march to destroy freedom is the most recent giant step taken to make torture legitimate and to eliminate habeas corpus.
Here is a very good write up by one of the relatively few libertarians in the US:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/hornberger/hornberger103.html

Dreamtwister · Fission Joined: Feb 06, 2006 Posts: 2220

The "only" way it could work is if every citizen rose up in unison. Since the "uniter" has been so thoroughly divisive, that will never happen. Willie Lynch has shown the way:

AgentR

Battle_Scarred_Galactico · Intermediate Crude Joined: Apr 07, 2005 Posts: 970

All in all, I think freedom does not stand a chance until our numbers fall back to under 1/2 billion, at which time we will be spread out enough and poverty stricken enough that it will not be worth the efforts of the thugs in government to plunder any but the most easy targets.

I would have to agree, excellent post.
_________________
"One minute I held the key, next the walls were closed on me, and I discovered that my castle stands upon pillars of salt and pillars of sand."

threadbear · Expert Joined: Jan 22, 2005 Posts: 7508

If the govt declares you, a citizen, an enemy combatant, does your case becomes a "national security" issue? Is it closed to public scrutiny then?

They don't have to strip you of citizenship, or deny you habeus corpus in order to arrest you on some bogus charge. They're free to can your ass forever. If there's no transparency, that's the problem.

firestarter · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Mar 19, 2006 Posts: 1112

Since when did the state ever care a wit about anything but consolidation of power for the purposes of class preservation for the privleged at the expense and explotation of the weak?
The state, in its origins, and by its first intentions, is an anti-social organization (a class-instrument for the perpetuation of economic exploitation). It's never, ever been about a so called pact entered into for mutual protection between competing entities--never! Ever read Marx, Nock or Robertus-Jagestzow?

The power of the state has always been used as a blunt instrument that is perpetually at odds with the social morals of individuals. What we have now become in these United States resembles the thinking of the founders no more than does the thinking of Bill Buckley reflects that of the late Gus Hall.
For each and every so called good the state is given power to ENFORCE, there is and equal and much more pernicious avenue paved for criminal activity (in the name of the state) whereby an individual's right to be left alone are reduced to a pulp by the very state supposedly erected as a bullwark to ensure individual liberty's preservation in the first place.

Like it or not, the state is the hammer and we are the nails, which is exactly as was intended from the beginning, government school propaganda notwithstanding.
Speaking of govt schools, where do you think 90%+ of the led by the nose masses matricualted? Where do most of the elite's children matriculate? Get it yet?

Fergus · Heavy Crude Joined: Jun 13, 2006 Posts: 409

Its natures way of taking care of the problems. Your percentage of idiots in any population is directly corrolary to your total population. Low population=low percentage of idiots. High population=High percentage of idiots. You will never get the largest percentage of anyone to agree on anything that is of a life impacting matter.

Fergies law of stupid people #1

mercurygirl · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Jan 29, 2006 Posts: 1192