For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
Yes
40%
[ 15 ]
No
48%
[ 18 ]
America wasn't screwed up
10%
[ 4 ]
Total Votes : 37
Author
Message
smallpoxgirl Moderator
Joined: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 5206
Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Venezuela takes back control of oil fields
ALBY wrote:
But hey, ask the stockbridge indians, the algonquin and the mahicans about what the mohawk did to them OR the creek or chippewa about the lakota. They killed an enslaved each other and the Mohawks were rumored to be cannibals! I guess our killing them is worse then them killing each other because ... why?
The difference is one of balance.
The wolf kills a deer. He doesn't say "I am going to set out to eliminate all deer from the planet." He kills and eats deer no faster than nature can provide a new deer. Eventually the wolf dies. He fertilizes the ground. The grass feeds the deer, and the circle continues. The point is not that the wolf and the deer should learn to be nice to eachother. The point is that the cycle has value and you shouldn't go around needlessly killing millions of others for petty gain. You shouldn't disrupt the cycle, because ultimately you also hurt yourself.
Indians were so busy killing eachother that there were 10,000,000 of them living here. Then with in a couple of hundred yearsof the whites showing up, there were 100,000 of them. The way the whites approached conflict was fundamentally different. I firmly believe that conflict is something that is hard wired into young male humans. It is biological. The question is, what does your society do with that drive? Warfare has always existed. Genocide has not. Lakota raiding parties were all the time going to "war" with the Crow and the Shoshone and any of a dozen other tribes. The usual outcome of these "wars" was that everybody shouted and hollered and bared their chest. A couple of younger braves beat the crap out of eachother, and then everybody went home to tell the stories. Their societies channeled it in ways that expressed and honored that drive without destroying the culture. In Indian culture the value of conflict was personal (proving yourself brave) and interpersonal (protecting loved ones, elders, and the tribe). For the Europeans, the value of conflict was monetary and hegemonic. The goal was quite literally the anhiliation of the opponent.
Joined: Feb 23, 2005 Posts: 491 Location: Winnipeg
Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Venezuela takes back control of oil fields
Then it may be that murderous aggressiveness is a positive adaptation(Although it'll take a few centuries to begin to prove that I think). Like you illustrated life feeds on life, one group of people killing another people and taking their land is no different than the wolf eating the sheep. Idealism is good for benchmarking I suppose, but in reality its like the saying goes, Though I walk in the valley of Death I fear no evil for I am the biggest baddest sonofabitch in the valley.
Joined: Sep 30, 2005 Posts: 439 Location: Baltimore County, Md
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Venezuela takes back control of oil fields
smallpoxgirl wrote:
The wolf kills a deer. He doesn't say "I am going to set out to eliminate all deer from the planet." He kills and eats deer no faster than nature can provide a new deer.
a wolf doesn't kill a deer, a PACK of wolves runs down a fawn and they eat it alive while it screams and bleeds to death. deer are prey and the wolves are predators. very few prey animals die of old age. that 'balance' is great if you are the predator.
but the anaology to natives vs settlers is tortured at best. would you have us believe the white man was the predator and the indian prey ? there is a lot of history that the reverse was true for many years on the frontier. the original reason american settlers began exterminating the natives was fear. the level of interpersonal violence on the frontier was shocking to them. 18th century europeans did not filet one another alive or burn each other alive in the council fires.
smallpoxgirl wrote:
Lakota raiding parties were all the time going to "war" with the Crow and the Shoshone and any of a dozen other tribes. The usual outcome of these "wars" was that everybody shouted and hollered and bared their chest. A couple of younger braves beat the crap out of eachother, and then everybody went home to tell the stories.
IMO, you've bought into a very selective and romanticized version of indian history. i admit, i don't know much about the plains indians, but I will tell you that the mohawk and seneca didn't give a chit about counting coo or whatever. they were the hells angels of their era. they put the 'skirts' on the tribes they subjegated and ruled through terror, intimidation and genocide. cross the mohawk and your villages would be torched, your braves killed and hostages tortured for entertainment. and they did this for generations before any white man stepped foot in their territory.
smallpoxgirl wrote:
Indians were so busy killing eachother that there were 10,000,000 of them living here. Then with in a couple of hundred yearsof the whites showing up, there were 100,000 of them.
first of all 10,000,000 is the high end of the estimate for native populations. and, while you would attribute this to a difference in how each society approached warfare, in truth, microbes and disease caused most of the damage, and I don't believe there is any proof this was done on purpose until the late 18th century . (not to say the spanish came with good intentions) as far as i know, the first recorded incident of biological warfare was perpetrated on the Mingo by the colonials at fort pitt, where smallpox infected blankets were purposely given as gifts.
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: The American Military
Alby,you're full of 'chit'.But you're forgiven out of pity for your suffering under the white man's burden. An academic education in history is a terrible affliction when it comes to the North American Indian. Those white assed boys scribbling down their notions of indigenous cultures are about as reliable as an AAA map to a pilot flying without instruments in a blizzard.
The Iroquois were bestial? Animals? Monsters depraved preying on their neighbours and those po' white folk?
Nothing quite like scholarly racial profiling.
If you knew anything,the least squib,about anything to do with Iroquois reality,you'd cross yourself twice and get to church for the things you've said.For brains,for bravery,for self governance,for philosophy and poetry,for the arts of war and the glories of a complex mythology,the seven nations beggared all.The'barbarity' trumpeted by modern historians in their tales of Iroquois is,in the fashion of the day,a levelling stroke. If we believe the white man's histories,the average Iroquois spent his days burning,boiling,mutilating and eviscerating his enemies.It's a portrait as ignorant as Rousseau's.
The world's first aboriginal university has opened in Regina,Saskatchewan.You can't teach unless you are native.No white men allowed.I'm looking forward to reading the coming flood of books,tracts,treatises,monographs on Indian history by Indian historians.It should do something to clear the air of two hundred years of European lies.
Joined: Sep 19, 2005 Posts: 1113 Location: OR, USA
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:21 am Post subject: Re: The American Military
hotsacks wrote:
Alby,you're full of 'chit'.But you're forgiven out of pity for your suffering under the white man's burden. An academic education in history is a terrible affliction when it comes to the North American Indian. Those white assed boys scribbling down their notions of indigenous cultures are about as reliable as an AAA map to a pilot flying without instruments in a blizzard.
The Iroquois were bestial? Animals? Monsters depraved preying on their neighbours and those po' white folk?
Nothing quite like scholarly racial profiling.
If you knew anything,the least squib,about anything to do with Iroquois reality,you'd cross yourself twice and get to church for the things you've said.For brains,for bravery,for self governance,for philosophy and poetry,for the arts of war and the glories of a complex mythology,the seven nations beggared all.The'barbarity' trumpeted by modern historians in their tales of Iroquois is,in the fashion of the day,a levelling stroke. If we believe the white man's histories,the average Iroquois spent his days burning,boiling,mutilating and eviscerating his enemies.It's a portrait as ignorant as Rousseau's.
The world's first aboriginal university has opened in Regina,Saskatchewan.You can't teach unless you are native.No white men allowed.I'm looking forward to reading the coming flood of books,tracts,treatises,monographs on Indian history by Indian historians.It should do something to clear the air of two hundred years of European lies.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but:
1. Can you provide any credible citations for your above claims? If you can't, then they are little more than fanciful thinking by an anonymous Internet poster.
2. Do you really think that these Indian historians will have the first ever monopoly on the unvarnished truth about what it was like a few hundred years ago? _________________ Kiss Hank's Ass And He Will Give You a Million Dollars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDp7pkEcJVQ
Joined: Sep 30, 2005 Posts: 439 Location: Baltimore County, Md
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: Re: The American Military
please hotsacks, how do you know im a white man ?
sorry to challenge the echochamber groupthink orhtodoxy of the red man good white man bad revisionism that passes for scholarship these days.
i have a great deal of respect for the Iroquois and I approach their history from a non judgemental point of view. they were by far the greatest aboriginal society in north america and there is much to admire there. however, it would be disingenous (ignorant) to think they were nice to their neighbors much less their enemies.
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: The American Military
ALBY wrote:
hotsacks wrote:
The world's first aboriginal university has opened in Regina,Saskatchewan.You can't teach unless you are native.No white men allowed.
racist.
Understandably racist.Mercifully racist.Justly racist.
At least the deaths of the first millions of aboriginals was quick.The cultural genocide that followed has not been so kind.First the Indian had to swallow the religious pill and see himself a lost soul.Then he had to stand for the pity and fantasy of the 'gentle folk'.Then he got the scholarly poke in the ribs that reduced him to an atom in a sea of atoms.Now he's got the New Agers on his back with their herbs and dream catchers and shaman worship.His culture has been pricked at and prodded by generation after generation of analytical Euros who,no matter how many letters they put after their names, just don't get it.There is no common thread between the tribal mind and the technological.There is no common thread between the technological mind and nature.That's why we're in the mess we're in.
The aboriginal university will be the first opportunity indigenous people have had to go over their own history,to articulate and argue the truths and lies that history reveals about them as a distinct people.There will undoubtedly be great focus on how such a vital civilzation degenerated into today's sorry spectacle.There will be no whites teaching their version of the tragedy.It will be Indians teaching Indians the inexorable facts of human 'progress'.
You say you don't want to see your daughter in a burkah.You didn't really mind that other people were forced into strange cultural practises so that you might have the pleasures of freedom.-The only claim you have to the ground on which you stand is by force of arms.If you believe in the rule of law,that ground is stolen property.You are either proud of the fruits of genocide,and stand to defend them;or you are ethically and legally bound to admit your complicity in forcing the burkah on others,and stand ready to pay.
You asked how I was to know whether or not you were native.
A native would have known there are 6 nations in the Iroquois Confederacy,not 7.
Injun psy-ops.
Joined: Sep 30, 2005 Posts: 439 Location: Baltimore County, Md
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: The American Military
injun psyops. please.
silly me, i thought you were referring to the Kahnawake and the seven nations revervation in canada.
and it's five nations brother, the name of the oneida is not spoken at the council fire by real iroquois. but then again, don't take my word for it, im full of chit.
My family has a bunch of houses in upstate NY on land won by the oneida in their land claim. I'll get clear title when the Turningstone casino gets slots. So, pardon me if I think my people have paid.
BTW, My daughter is five and she will never wear a burhka because she'll have a Glock.
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: The American Military
The iroquois were the greatest empire ever in all history. They would have lasted indefinately with their sustainable ways. if it wasnt for disease and addiction to steel. They were huge bodied and in nature larger bodied organism have lower rates of reproduction combined with there earth centered culture u had a nation that would have lasted long long time. They manged the land as agrocery store. a self sustaining factory. They also were master farmers. They however were brutal warriors. you have to be brutal or else u end up like all soft empires overrun with overbreeding, loose loins and usurpations. They would kill u in a wink of the eye. Go to the nys museaum up in Albany.
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: The American Military
ALBY wrote:
injun psyops. please.
silly me, i thought you were referring to the Kahnawake and the seven nations revervation in canada.
and it's five nations brother, the name of the oneida is not spoken at the council fire by real iroquois. but then again, don't take my word for it, im full of chit.
My family has a bunch of houses in upstate NY on land won by the oneida in their land claim. I'll get clear title when the Turningstone casino gets slots. So, pardon me if I think my people have paid.
BTW, My daughter is five and she will never wear a burhka because she'll have a Glock.
Well Alby,I'll have to take my moccasin out of my mouth here and mumble apologies.
So much for Injun psy ops.No wonder we lost.
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: The American Military
Lets remember too that the WASPS were not the great killer of the indians. The spanish and their diseases were. This is the biggest misconcepetion from the bleeding hearts. By the time wasps even got to the east coast the Indian tribes were decimated. Did u know that there were only around 300,000 left in the entire US when either the indian wars started or when the pilgrims came. Im not sure which one but either way they were done before the wasps even got here. they jsut mopped up. If the indians were at full strnght they would have destroyed the wasps. The Iroquois really were the only ones who could have crushed us. they ahd that killer instinct where it was not just counting coup like the plains indians. They were not nice in battle. It was war not just a cultural game. when they died out that reallly ended the indian threat. By the time crazy horse ended custers time they were learning how to whip the US army and there advanced technology but there was not enough of them. They also fought a different way. it was not about exterminating the enemy. It was part of their pageantry. without their enemy they werent complete. They also didnt breed like rats and create situations where u had to exterminate everyone in order for them to have resources. there was plenty to go around and then some. Today the breeding rates are so high that we have to destroy everyhting inorder to sequester there energy sources. There really is becoming no room for anything else but humans.
Joined: Sep 30, 2005 Posts: 439 Location: Baltimore County, Md
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: The American Military
hotsacks wrote:
Well Alby,I'll have to take my moccasin out of my mouth here and mumble apologies. So much for Injun psy ops.No wonder we lost.
well at least you have a sense of humor.
i took the time to honor the haudensaunee by studying their history.
some of the half baked chit i read from the kevin costner types makes my eyes bleed.
most americans do not know that without the oneida dragging corn down to valley forge, there would be no united states. samuel kirkland sweet talked them into siding with the colonials while the rest of the confederacy remained loyal to their british fathers.
the iroquois did not die out of natural causes. in the late summer and fall of 1779 george washington sent colonel john sullivan into the iroquois homeland and destroyed their castles and villages and killed the women and children. they were led by oneida scouts.
it's all been papered over by apologists and do gooders, but thats the history. the oneida did it. i never tire of reminding those facking casino indians of it whenever i get the chance.
for their bloody treachery, the oneida were rewarded by the federal governement with a treaty protecting their sovereign lands in perpetuity. the great state of NY abrogated that treaty before the inlk was dry and countless times thereafter. lucky for the oneida some old sachem kept a box of papers and they won their land claim in the supreme court in 1978.
today they make ungodly amounts of money from their casino, they own every gas station in central NY and have accumulated vast tracts of land that are off the tax rolls, alienating the local rustbelt leftovers in the area. they will not share with the wisonson oneida who could really use the help and do nothing for their fellow haudensaunee, like the onondoga, who frankly, could use the help even more.
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: The American Military
holmes wrote:
Did u know that there were only around 300,000 left in the entire US when either the indian wars started or when the pilgrims came
That is probably a reasonable estimate for when the Indian wars began in the 1860's. The population in the Continental US pre-contact is estimated at 10,000,000. It is quite true that the Atlantic Coastal populations took a big hit from diseases introduced by migratory traders before the Mayflower. By some estimates 50 to 75 percent of the population of the Atlantic coastal peoples had been killed. That still would have left over 9 million nationwide. To claim that the Pilgrims were "just mopping up" is nothing more than bold faced prevarication. The Spanish definitely created an immense amount of misery in Mexico and Central and South America. Their victims probably number in the hundreds of millions, but the Spanish made only minor incursions into the Continental US. It was primarily English colonists along with some French, Dutch, and others, acting on the Spanish model, that created wholesale destruction for the Indians here.
Again...the Iroquois were no doubt harsh in their interactions with other tribes on occasion. Two things bear noting however. By the time whites showed up the tribes were being pushed off their traditional lands and were being brought into conflict with eachother for the very necessities of life. People were starving to death. The level of conflict between tribes was increased immensly by this. It's rather like saying the Jews are inately brutal because they were witnessed to fight viciously over a scrap of bread at Aushwitz. Secondly if the Indians were spending so much time marauding around killing eachother, why were there so many of them? Under the gentle ministrations of the kind English protestants their populations plumetted, and the effects of disease don't come close to explaining all those deaths.
The truth is that the noble and persecuted Pilgrims were blood thirsty killers that would have made the average SS Storm Trooper blush. The reason they were persona non-grata in Britan was because Cromwell (a prominent Puritan leader) had just finished his reign of terror over there. He is probably more reviled in Ireland today than any other historical figure except maybe Thatcher. So they got booted out of Britan and came over here and did the same thing.
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a wolf doesn't kill a deer, a PACK of wolves runs down a fawn and they eat it alive while it screams and bleeds to death. deer are prey and the wolves are predators. very few prey animals die of old age. that 'balance' is great if you are the predator.
