Hoarding is exactly what the government is doing right now by filling the SPR, and frankly it's the best thing that could happen. It drives prices up. High prices encourage demand destruction. They also finance new well development. The hoarded oil gives us a buffer to fall back on once shortages become more prevalent. High prices are what we need in order to adapt to what's coming, and the sooner they happen, the better.
Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
Yes
40%
[ 15 ]
No
48%
[ 18 ]
America wasn't screwed up
10%
[ 4 ]
Total Votes : 37
Author
Message
FossilFool Tar Sands
Joined: Jan 29, 2006 Posts: 81
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: THE Native Americans Thread
Do you think that given their ancient culture that they would have eventually created what the European settlers did? What we see today. Given all of the resources we had. Or was it because our culture was so inventing itself and new that we went this unsustainable route? It was probably inevitable that what happened to people of that lifestyle happen to them. But I think maybe they would have done things different, even if they did eventually develop a civilization. They were doing some agriculture. That would probably be the only way for them to be left alone. Really, is it the culture or the overarching forces of hierarchy that directs the steering wheel of a society would create the the same America, only with people of a differet race? Sure, they have casinoes, but only because they have nothing else.
Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Republic of Texas
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
Let's see. Crete; Etruscans; Classical Greece; Alexander; Roman Empire; Byzantine; Teutons; Lombard; Davinci; Newton; Tsars; Napoleon; Great Britain.
I'd say the Native Americans had a long way to go before they could have as successfully exploited their environment as Europeans did.
They had already reached their environmental capacity when we got here. _________________ Conform . Consume . Obey .
Joined: Nov 24, 2005 Posts: 743 Location: The ever shrinking wilds of Norway
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
TommyJefferson wrote:
Let's see. Crete; Etruscans; Classical Greece; Alexander; Roman Empire; Byzantine; Teutons; Lombard; Davinci; Newton; Tsars; Napoleon; Great Britain.
I'd say the Native Americans had a long way to go before they could have as successfully exploited their environment as Europeans did.
They had already reached their environmental capacity when we got here.
They were in process of screwing it up a little more. The agriculture was spreading by the time of white man. But it would as you say have taken a lot of time.
White innovations accelerated the process. The horse and gun accelerated the depletion of the buffalo already before the white man arrived.
But white man of course is to blame for most of it.
Joined: Nov 24, 2005 Posts: 743 Location: The ever shrinking wilds of Norway
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
Most aboriginal (Australian) tribes did not allow technological invention from what I have heard. They destroyed their lands once and found a new balance with it. Balance is impossible with constant innovations.
They kept the balance for at least 20000 years. Not bad for a human being.
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
20,000 years? I don't think so. Its not like it was one continuous culture. There were several cycles of collapse and rebirth in the Americas as well. And some of those are directly linked to misuse of resources and or bad agricultural practices with occasional outright warfare. Mayan and Anasazi come to mind. and later the Pueblo and Navajo were at war for over a hundred years. Trust me they didn't build on the side of cliffs for the view...
-G _________________ All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!
Joined: Sep 02, 2005 Posts: 113 Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
Don't make the mistake of believing the Eurocentric idea that Native Americans were war mongering savages, who were inferior to Europeans, in fact nothing could be further from the truth. While they did war with other tribes, it was nothing compared to European warfare. Women, children, and the elderly were NEVER involved, and they had remarkably low casualties. The balance was disrupted about 10,000 years ago with the introduction of agriculture, and subsequently hierarchal society, and Empire culture, begining in Eurasia, and spreading to Europe. Empire culutre has dominated ever since, along with environmental destruction, suffering, disease, slavery, etc.
An Iroquois law, which is the mantra of the Seventh Generation company says:
"In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations"
-from the great law of the Iroquois confederacy
Ben Franklin wrote extensively on Native Americans, he often said that while it was quite common for European settlers to join the Native American culture, he didn't know of any Native Americans who wanted to join the European culture. Here is an example:
Quote:
The following is an excerpt from a longer piece written by Benjamin Franklin about 1784. Franklin clearly does not regard Native Americans as "savages": he is using the term for ironic effect. The "savages" are, in fact, as civilized or more civilized than the Whites: it is the Whites who must rely upon force, punishment, and prisons to enforce good behavior.
The representatives of the Six Nations (Haudenosaunee or Iroquois) are offered full scholarships at William and Mary for six of their young men. Out of politeness, the Iroquois wait until the following day to reply. The Iroquois then turn the offer down and present a generous counter offer.
—JMU Editor
Remarks Concerning the Savages of North America:
Savages we call them, because their Manners differ from ours, which we think the Perfection of Civility; they think the same of theirs.
Perhaps, if we could examine the Manners of different nations with Impartiality, we should find no People so rude, as to be without any Rules of Politeness; nor any so polite, as not to have some Remains of Rudeness.
The Indian men, when young, are Hunters and Warriors; when old, Counsellors; for all their Government is by Counsel of the Sages; there is no Force, there are no Prisons, no Officers to compel Obedience, or inflict Punishment. Hence they generally study Oratory, the best Speaker having the most Influence. The Indian Women till the Ground, dress the Food, nurse and bring up the Children, and preserve and hand down to Posterity the Memory of public Transactions. These Employments of men and Women are accounted natural and honourable. Having few artificial Wants, they have abundance of Leisure for Improvement by Conversation. Our laborious Manner of Life, compared with theirs, they esteem slavish and base; and the Learning, on which we value ourselves, they regard as frivolous and useless. An Instance of this occurred at the Treaty of Lancaster, in Pennsylvania, anno 1744, between the Government of Virginia, and the Six Nations. After the principal Business was settled, the Commissioners from Virginia acquainted the Indians by a Speech, that there was at Williamsburg a College, with a Fund for Educating Indian youth; and that, if the Six Nations would send down half a dozen of their young lads to that College, the Government would take care that they should be well provided for, and instructed in all the Learning of the White People. It is one of the Indian Rules of Politeness not to answer a public Proposition the same day that it is made; they think it would be treating it as a light matter, and that they show it Respect by taking time to consider it, as of a Matter important. They therefore deferr'd their Answer till the Day following; when their Speaker began, by expressing their deep Sense of the kindness of the Virginia Government, in making them that Offer; "for we know," says he, "that you highly esteem the kind of Learning taught in those Colleges, and that the Maintenance of our young Men, while with you, would be very expensive to you. We are convinc'd, therefore, that you mean to do us Good by your Proposal; and we thank you heartily. But you, who are wise, must know that different nations have different Conceptions of things; and you will therefore not take it amiss, if our Ideas of this kind of Education happen not to be the same with yours. We have had some Experience of it; Several of our young People were formerly brought up at the Colleges of the Northern Provinces; they were instructed in all your Sciences; but, when they came back to us, they were bad Runners, ignorant of every means of living in the Woods, unable to bear either Cold or Hunger, knew neither how to build a Cabin, take a Deer, or kill an Enemy, spoke our Language imperfectly, were therefore neither fit for Hunters, Warriors, nor Counsellors; they were totally good for nothing. We are however not the less oblig'd by your kind Offer, tho' we decline accepting it; and, to show our grateful Sense of it, if the Gentlemen of Virginia will send us a Dozen of their Sons, we will take great Care of their Education, instruct them in all we know, and make Men of them."
No prisons, no police, no mental instituions, no disease, no pollution, yeah they were well on there way to wiping themselves out. NOT.
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 1631 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
TommyJefferson wrote:
Let's see. Crete; Etruscans; Classical Greece; Alexander; Roman Empire; Byzantine; Teutons; Lombard; Davinci; Newton; Tsars; Napoleon; Great Britain.
I'd say the Native Americans had a long way to go before they could have as successfully exploited their environment as Europeans did.
They had already reached their environmental capacity when we got here.
Evolution is merely a dialectic process to find the most comfortable and rewarding systemic arrangement....nothing cultural or metaphysical about it. It just so happens that the arrangement that emerged from Europe is especially resilient and resource intensive being based as it is on the accumulation of private capital as well as on functional forms that enable the accumulaion process to flourish unhampered to a large degree.
In its exported state to India, China, Japan and Asia generally, we will see it refined to the nth degree in terms of its resource depletion capacity......no one's to blame yet all of us are......for by our lack of political acumen, we unwittingly conspired to bring about the demise of our one and only planetary home. _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
Joined: Nov 24, 2005 Posts: 743 Location: The ever shrinking wilds of Norway
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
gnm wrote:
20,000 years? I don't think so. Its not like it was one continuous culture. There were several cycles of collapse and rebirth in the Americas as well. And some of those are directly linked to misuse of resources and or bad agricultural practices with occasional outright warfare. Mayan and Anasazi come to mind. and later the Pueblo and Navajo were at war for over a hundred years. Trust me they didn't build on the side of cliffs for the view...-G
Australian aboriginies I meant. There may have been cultures rising and collapsing there as well, but not to my knowledge.
Culture will enevitably change a little, but the change may be slowed by cultural systems itself.
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
BO wrote:
Don't make the mistake of believing the Eurocentric idea that Native Americans were war mongering savages, who were inferior to Europeans, in fact nothing could be further from the truth. While they did war with other tribes, it was nothing compared to European warfare. Women, children, and the elderly were NEVER involved, and they had remarkably low casualties.
Women, children, and elderly never involved? Puh-lease.
LATER European warfare had more causulties because we had better weapons. Primitive European warfare was pretty similar.
Really...? I suppose you think there was no evidence of cannibalism, horrendous torture or human sacrifice either then? Oh and you can apply those to early Euro cultures too. I don't take sides..
Perhaps you should do some research on the "Moche" - they were so brutal in thier torture executions of captives in war that defeated enemies would suicide to avoid capture.
Torjus - Oh, I see... Yes Australian aboriginal groups could probably be considered a continuous culture. Interesting point. I am not well studied on them. Anyone care to weigh in?
-G _________________ All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!
Joined: Sep 02, 2005 Posts: 113 Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
gnm wrote:
Quote:
Women, children, and elderly never involved? Puh-lease.
Source?, or are you assuming?
Quote:
Perhaps you should do some research on the "Moche" - they were so brutal in thier torture executions of captives in war that defeated enemies would suicide to avoid capture.
I am not saying there were not bloodthirsty tribes, I am saying it was not widespread. Asians and Europeans have been hacking each other apart, women and children included, for 10,000 years, bloodshed DEFINES our culture. And it has nothing to do with better weapons, the Native Americans weren't sitting around trying to figure out better ways to butcher each other, they tried to avoid conflict, again, with the exception of some tribes.
There culture wasn't based on greed, theft, slavery, and competition, therefore, warfare, for the most part, was a means of last resort, not first.
Maybe you should do some research and provide some proof of your assertions. _________________ Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
-Edward Abbey
Widespread human sacrifice of men, women and even children?
wikipedia
Oh but I'm sure they would never kill them in war... only after they captured them right? So that makes it ok...
Now who needs to back up their assertations?
Go back to school Pollyanna... every culture does terrible things. Or did they train you that only "white" people do bad things?
I think if you compared European stone age culture to early American Indian you would get a fair approximation so don't say that greed, theft, etc are somehow a European exclusive.
People in general and particularly drummed up in nationalistic/racial/religious frenzies do their worst given the extent to which they can... be it widespread stone-axeing or nuking a city.
-G _________________ All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
Native Americans would have destroyed their environment just like any other culture if provided the tools. Tools, meaning horses, cows or any large beast of burden. Since these creatures were not available, natives could not scale their farming to the size of Indo-Europeans farms.
This prevented them from focusing any surplus of possible population to invent/create metal weapons (even though the components exist in the ground). The lack of horses prevented them from pursing mobile warfare. I refer everyone to Jared Diamond's masterpiece, Jared Diamond - Guns, Germs and Steel for illucidation on why some cultures advanced as they did and others didn't. It all comes down to what your given.
Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 1648 Location: Republic of Texas
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
BO wrote:
There culture wasn't based on greed, theft, slavery, and competition, therefore, warfare, for the most part, was a means of last resort, not first.
Spare us your romantic wishful thinking.
gnm posted links to documentation for his views. You are regurgitating some fantasy a fat hippie spun during a sabbatical in Santa Fe and typed into his lecture notes.
You should be more discerning. _________________ Conform . Consume . Obey .
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 2125 Location: Along the banks of the muddy Mississippi
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
Torjus wrote:
White innovations accelerated the process. The horse and gun accelerated the depletion of the buffalo already before the white man arrived.
Uh, there were no guns and horses among American aboriginals before the white man arrived.
Torjus wrote:
But white man of course is to blame for most of it.
In the early 1800s, Lewis and Clark reported that the multitudes of buffalo darkened the whole plains. The estimates are that there were between 35 and 75 million at that time. There were essentially none at that time east of the Mississippi River, since European settlers had killed them off to protect their own livestock and farmlands.
Buffalo were "hunted" almost to extinction from the windows of trains during the late 1800s. It turns out that buffalo hides were useful as belts in the machinery of the Industrial Revolution and so their hides were hunted (while the meat was left to rot). There is also documented evidence that the buffalo were hunted to deprive the natives on the plains of their primary food source.
White man was to blame for ALL of that. _________________ “Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry)
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