Hoarding is exactly what the government is doing right now by filling the SPR, and frankly it's the best thing that could happen. It drives prices up. High prices encourage demand destruction. They also finance new well development. The hoarded oil gives us a buffer to fall back on once shortages become more prevalent. High prices are what we need in order to adapt to what's coming, and the sooner they happen, the better.
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
cheRand wrote:
If there had not been a cultural clash with Eurocentric stockpiling, tribes would not have been overrun and displaced, and the culture, which still works so well at managing within its reproductive limits, would be intact (well, evolved) and living within their means.
I don't think you can say that with any certainty. What would have stopped a later and more successful mesoamerican empire from displacing and wiping out the Cherokee? The reproductive limits that worked so well were known as disease and starvation. Which is why the Mayans for instance ate and reproduced themselves into overshoot once they perfected agriculture.
And BO, I really can't believe you are saying that Europeans are somehow fundamentally inferior. GEEZ I thought we covered that.
Whats the difference between small indigenous american tribes and early european tribes at the same period of technological development? The early european tribes also followed various forms of animism/paganism with a deep respect for the earth and their place in it..
-G _________________ All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11351 Location: Village of Idiots
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
gnm wrote:
The reproductive limits that worked so well were known as disease and starvation.
Well, no, actually. Tribal peoples tend to use population control methods, such as abortion and infanticide, and sexual taboos. Starvation to death is not common in HG cultures.
Quote:
Which is why the Mayans for instance ate and reproduced themselves into overshoot once they perfected agriculture.
Famine is more common in agriculture than HG, and agriculture is more vulnerable to hard times. It promotes a population which outstrips its resources, which HG doesn't do.
Quote:
Whats the difference between small indigenous american tribes and early european tribes at the same period of technological development? The early european tribes also followed various forms of animism/paganism with a deep respect for the earth and their place in it..
No difference. Prior to conquest by the Romans, the indigenous people of Europe were tribal, HG or small scale agriculture/horticulture. They behaved like any other tribes. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Sep 02, 2005 Posts: 113 Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
gnm wrote:
Quote:
And BO, I really can't believe you are saying that Europeans are somehow fundamentally inferior. GEEZ I thought we covered that.
Hey, I just disagree, to me, superior races live in harmony with their enviroment, control their populations, and don't destroy others in order to expand a complex system. I am not saying that ALL people of European descent are inferior, nor am I saying that these actions are uniquely European. Just taken as a whole, white European societies have reaped the most destruction upon the earth and humanity, than any other. If capitalism, globalism, empire, or whatever you want to call it, is a race to the bottom, than the white man wins.
For example,regarding the Kogi:
Quote:
Much like other ancient tribal civilizations, that still exist on the planet, they believe themselves to be the custodians of the planet Earth here to keep things in balance. They achieve this through meditation wherein they communicate with all living things on the planet - humans, animals, plants, rock, etc.
They live in Aluna, an inner world of thought and potential. From Aluna they astral travel or remote view to places both on and off the physical planet.
Their sacred lands are perceived as a metaphysical symbol of cosmic forces within the whole world - an oracle of the natural balance and health of the planet. ...They survived as a culture because the Kogi focus all their energy on the life of the mind as opposed to the life of a body or an individual.
To focus all of ones energy on the life of the mind, IMO, is superior, than say, focusing all of ones energy on accumulating wealth, which, IMO, is an inferior act.
Furthermore, ancient cultures were rewarded for their superiority as evidenced by John Zerzan in Future Primitive:
Quote:
The Andaman Islanders, west of Thailand, have no leaders, no idea of symbolic representation, and no domesticated animals. There is also an absence of aggression, violence, and disease; wounds heal surprisingly quickly, and their sight and hearing are particularly acute. They are said to have declined since European intrusion in the mid-19th century, but exhibit other such remarkable physical traits as a natural immunity to malaria, skin with sufficient elasticity to rule out post-childbirth stretch marks and the wrinkling we associate with ageing, and an `unbelievable' strength of teeth: Cipriani reported seeing children of 10 to 15 years crush nails with them. He also testified to the Andamese practice of collecting honey with no protective clothing at all; "yet they are never stung, and watching them one felt in the presence of some age-old mystery, lost by the civilized world."
DeVries has cited a wide range of contrasts by which the superior health of gatherer-hunters can be established, including an absence of degenerative diseases and mental disabilities, and childbirth without difficulty or pain. He also points out that this begins to erode from the moment of contact with civilization.
Relatedly, there is a great deal of evidence not only for physical and emotional vigor among primitives but also concerning their heightened sensory abilities. Darwin described people at the southernmost tip of South America who went about almost naked in frigid conditions, while Peasley observed Aborigines who were renowned for their ability to live through bitterly cold desert nights "without any form of clothing." Levi-Strauss was astounded to learn of a particular [South American] tribe which was able to "see the planet Venus in full daylight," a feat comparable to that of the North African Dogon who consider Sirius B the most important star; somehow aware, without instruments, of a star that can only be found with the most powerful of telescopes. In this vein, Boyden recounted the Bushman ability to see four of the moons of Jupiter with the naked eye.
I can't do any of those things, and will probably never be able to, because I, as a white person, am inferior to the ancient cultures where this was, and is prevalent. This inferiority may have been bred into us, as these abilities may have been bred out of us. We may even be able to reverse this process, but the fact remains, currently, we are inferior.
Another example of our inferiority is Monsanto's Terminator technology, which is designed to genetically switch off a plant's ability to germinate a second time.
Quote:
"A half-century after the Bengal famine [where, during British colonial rule, most of the food grown was exported for trade and for UK, instead of feeding hungry local people], a new and clever system has been put in place which is once again making the theft of the harvest a right and the keeping of harvest a crime. Hidden behind complex free-trade treaties are innovative ways to steal nature's harvest, the harvest of the seed, and the harvest of nutrition."
-- Vandana Shiva, Stolen Harvest (South End Press, 2000), p.6
In a world already facing global meltdown, especially in its food supply, this is just another example of the murderous, destructive nature of WHITE people. I mean, what kind of a mind comes up with something like this?
While some people, like many of us here, protest and raise awareness of these issues, the vast majority just go along with it. It is the same with Peak Oil, we, as a society, will do nothing, until it is too late. _________________ Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
-Edward Abbey
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
You are right Ludi. I was being overdramatic. Starvation is of course much more common in agricultural societies. Disease and injury I think gets all however. And you are correct about the other methods of population control as well.
Well I think this is the last I'm going to post on this thread since I am apparently talking to a wall as far as the lets all hate ourselves if we look "white" crowd goes. But I'll leave with this.
BO, while you're busy "race" bashing perhps you could define just what strange little subjective definition you use for "race" - Like do I have to "look" white or is there some sort of percentage? Like if I'm 1/8 "red", 1/8 "yellow", 1/4 "black" and the rest "white" but I "look white" then what am I? And so if by your definition I "look white" then I need to go an flog myself and generally live my life in shame because some distant unrelated ancestor who "looked white" did nasty things people who were slightly more tan or somesuch? Does that about cover it?
over and out..
-G _________________ All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11351 Location: Village of Idiots
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
Thanks, gnm. I wish you weren't leaving this thread. I think some others are having trouble seeing the difference between "race" and "culture." They should probably be criticising our culture rather than our race. I'm not big on the idea of race, myself, I prefer to think of regional differences, differences that developed over a long time in reaction to the environment. Which doesn't have a whole lot to do with where we find ourselves today with our culture. Mesopotamians probably wouldn't look especially "white" to most folks, but they started this particular mess we find ourselves in as a culture.
Regarding disease - it's likely nomadic and semi-nomadic peoples were slightly less prone to it than civilized peoples, because disease tends to build up in a crowded, settled population. Cities have typically been some of the least healthy places for people. Also, the civilized diet is less healthy than the HG diet, in general. Some peoples, such as the aforementioned Cherokee, had a vast knowledge of medicinal herbs. Most of our knowledge of North American medicinal herbs comes from the Cherokee, who used several hundred kinds (this with no written herbals, of course). _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
Ludi you sucked me back in but only to agree with you on your last post. It really is a cultural problem (possibly endemic to any sufficently complex culture). Any time people are so insulated from close social bonds, food production, crafts, etc they turn to the myopic search for entertainment, stuff, conquest etc... I also agree that "race" is merely a subjective interpretation of regional variations. Some people can't stand that because then they wouldn't be "special" or " oppressed" but just people. And some can't stand it because they are supremicists of some sort or the other and feel some overriding need to prove that whatever group they are in is obviously the most advanced/smartest/etc etc etc...
Oh yeah true about the disease thing too... HG generally have a more varied diet and thus better nutrition. Also less crowding (no cities etc) so fewer plagues/hygiene related problems.
-G _________________ All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 2125 Location: Along the banks of the muddy Mississippi
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Would the Native Americans have screwed up as royally?
gnm wrote:
Oh yeah true about the disease thing too... HG generally have a more varied diet and thus better nutrition. Also less crowding (no cities etc) so fewer plagues/hygiene related problems.
Also a great many particularly virulent diseases came about from raising animals for food (smallpox, VD, influenza,rabies, Mad Cow, etc).
By the way, while I generally agree in principle with BO's assertions, as a white guy with normally high self esteem, I would like to also go on record that being white makes me neither evil nor inferior.
It is the dominant culture of exploitation and destruction that is "evil". Many different races make up that culture ... some white, some black, some yellow, some brown, some red. _________________ “Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry)
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Native Americans & Early California: A Killing Field
true. However the closer to the sw and mexico the more exploitative the humans were. The smaller bodies have higher breeding rates than larger bodied species in nature. The piute indians however did not fit into your assumptions on this one. My pal lives in their summer hunting grounds. they had summer and winter hunting grounds and kept them sustaianble and managed them for thousands of years. they drove out the usurpers and the exploiters and overbreeders. tha comanches the same. the ones that sustaianed an ecological paradigm were the ones who brutally smashed the overextenders.
also the NW tribes, plains tribes and ne tribes were generally depended on the land so destroying it meant killing themselves. this is obviously not the case they were around a long time. However u are right in saying that they did exloit there resources. In those days it always came back the next season.
but I agree to say that all the tribes were sustainable is fantasy. as I said the sw, southern and mexican tribes continually overshot and migrated. utah has a brutal history. been to chaco canyon? The anazazi? they are finding that there was brutal canabalizing mass exodus north from the mexico and sw invading the sustaianble tribes to the north. also check out chacos petroglyphs. full of wild turkeys, goats, deer, etc.. nothing is there now. the drought and there overuse has rendered that area infertile. they consumed the resources and moved north. california is included in this sw paradigm. the way of the plains indian was to clear out an area of game move to the winter grounds and then come back to that spot the next season when the game reproduced. It was a ecological pradigm in that instance as well. tom brown has some good books.
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Native Americans & Early California: A Killing Field
and On a nutritional anthropology note (family Nut. Anthro prof at UO) the predominately corn based nutrition of the southern and sw and mexico popualtions is not conducive to full brain development. they basically cleaned out the wild proteins, were more "civilization" and ended up on a corn and squash diet. need those large spectrum proteins. the nw, ne and plains tribes brains were much more advanced. those buffalo and salmon were brain food. what a loss on that one. this can be seen in the iroquois constitution and cheif seattle speeches. and crazy horse and red cloud. and the sitting bull. advanced brains. those tribes did not overbreed. overbreeding destroys the protein and mineral base of the land then the brain degrades.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11351 Location: Village of Idiots
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Native Americans & Early California: A Killing Field
The neat thing is so many Native Americans could eat these things for thousands of years and barely deplete the populations. In Jacksonville, Florida, the highest point of land is an oyster shell midden created by the Timucuan who sat and ate oysters there for thousands of years. You look into the river from the midden and it is full of living oysters. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Native Americans & Early California: A Killing Field
Forget about culture, there is only one human species alive today, Homo sapiens genocidus-extinctionus. It is clear from genetic evidence that our species exterminated archaic europeans (neanderthals). While less well known, it is also clear from genetic studies of head lice and tapeworms, that our species encountered and exterminated archaic asians (aka Homo erectus, Java man, Peking man, and the 'hobbits') on the way to the americas.
Likewise, our species has been doing mass extinctions for at least 50,000 years. It happened in Australia, New Zealand (seen a Moa lately?), and the americas as well as eurasia. Fire and sharp sticks is all it takes to destroy an entire ecology. There are no innocent humans in our species. The less foolish ones (like some north american tribal cultures and modern Iceland), developed wisdom only after catastrophe.
"Gee, life is harder after we killed off all the mammoths, mastadons, camels, horses, and giant sloths, maybe we shouldn't exterminate all the buffalo" _________________ "The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air... Much that once was, is lost..." - Galadriel
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11351 Location: Village of Idiots
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Native Americans & Early California: A Killing Field
Um, well, that's all still up for debate in anthropological/paleonotological circles, but we wouldn't want to admit that, would we?
Coulda been climate change, coulda been disease, coulda been humans.
No it's just so much easier to say "humans are just rotten through and through" instead of saying "humans can be really stupid, but some of them learn from their mistakes."
The question is, will WE learn from THEIR mistakes? _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Native Americans & Early California: A Killing Field
Ludi wrote:
The question is, will WE learn from THEIR mistakes?
Silly question, of course we won't, we still have the same brains as cavemen. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11351 Location: Village of Idiots
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Native Americans & Early California: A Killing Field
LOL! No, it isn't a silly question, unless you're claiming the various tribal peoples who figured out how not to deplete their ecosystems had some other kind of brain! (see examples given by Jared Diamond in "Collapse")
I know it's important for folks to cling to their myths, but the fact is, not all humans behave alike, although they often tend to behave like other similar animals.
You need to realise humans have not been the only animal to displace other animals to the point of extinction. I don't see anyone getting on the case of the big cats who migrated up from South America and displaced ALL of the giant predatory birds, leaving only a few small remnants possibly related (like the roadrunner and the caracara). I don't know why some people seem to expect humans to behave differently from all other animals. It's like there are two myths operating at once: "We're evil sinners" and "We're special, the pinacle of creation." Hmm, seems familiar, somehow.... _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
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