How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: What's up with France?
UIUCstudent01 wrote:
Because busses and trains are for poor people. (Taxis are too expensive for everyday use, metro isn't instant gratification - plus it may be uncomfortable.)
Ha, ha,ha, what makes you think you are not about to become poor?
One of the traditions of "old money" rather than "yuppie noveau riche" is not to flaunt or waste money. This includes not buying the latest car, fashion etc. How do you keep money? How about don't spend it on things you don't need.
I'm not poor (yet, touch wood) but I use the train everyday, means I don't have to maintain a car or feed it. What's that word, ah, yes, it's economical. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: What's up with France?
bretonofidf wrote:
His only objective is to defend the interest of a minority : the more rich persons.
It is always the same problem : cupidity.
Its goal is to do what has been done in every single country in Europe. But Frenchmen are just too lazy, too conservatist, too ideologically wasted to understand the harsh reality. Do you know what is the latest invention of students and left parties? A student salary! Todays Frenchmen are so incredibly stupid. All the smart ones have already left the sinking boat
Joined: Jan 31, 2005 Posts: 451 Location: Massachusetts
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: What's up with France?
It is hard for us who live in the US or in other less regulated countries (the UK and its former colonies) to really understand the issues in France. From our perspective, they are unrealistic to expect job security because we don't.
From their perspective, though, they grew up assuming that they would have job security. The whole economic system is based on job security. You can't get a mortgage or much in the way of credit unless you have a secure job. Institutionalizing job insecurity for people under 26 is very frightening to them, because it looks like the beginning of the end of the comfortable world they grew up taking for granted. It is kind of like the sense of fear or dread that sets in (for most people) when you first learn the reality of peak oil.
I think that French young people recognize that this law, which allows employers to fire them at will any time before 2 years are up, will turn people under 26 into France's contingent labor force. They know that almost no job will last the full two years, because an employer would much rather have an employee that he is free to fire than one that he must keep. So he will fire even the better than average employees so that he is not forced to keep them through a recession, and replace them with new young hires who can be fired at will. So they will not be able to have a steady job until they are 26, and maybe not afterwards either (see below).
For French people over 26, or about to be over 26, this law is threatening because it will make it even harder for them to get hired. Most employers would much rather hire someone under 26 that they can fire at will than someone over 26 to whom they must commit. Also, for those over 26, this law could look like a frightening precedent. Let's say that the law increases the rate of employment for people under 26. The government might use that as a reason to extend it to the entire work force, in which case almost no one who doesn't already have a secure job (or who has lost one) would be able to keep a job for more than two years.
I think that it is this alarming precedent that has the French unions up in arms.
France is really in a tight spot. The best solution for them would be to give up the whole job security system completely so that employers do not take on such a big, long-term risk by hiring someone and so that there are no longer two classes of workers.
But the job security system is almost as central, I think, to the French government's claim to legitimacy as "the American dream" (suburban homeownership, possibility of retirement, etc.) is to the US government's claim to legitimacy. If the US government proposed a law that put the ability of most people to retire into question (like sharply cutting social security benefits for everyone who retires after the law takes effect in recognition of the fact that the government has spent the trust fund), Americans would be in the streets, too.
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:34 am Post subject: Re: What's up with France?
Yvan wrote:
bretonofidf wrote:
His only objective is to defend the interest of a minority : the more rich persons.
It is always the same problem : cupidity.
Its goal is to do what has been done in every single country in Europe. But Frenchmen are just too lazy, too conservatist, too ideologically wasted to understand the harsh reality. Do you know what is the latest invention of students and left parties? A student salary! Todays Frenchmen are so incredibly stupid. All the smart ones have already left the sinking boat
Maybe you've got it backwards : the world is the sinking boat, worshipping a capitalist system that is unsustainable over the long term (or even the medium term)... a system that generates huge profits for those who have the most and enslaves the rest - that, is the harsh (indeed) reality which you seem to readily accept.
The French, (and it wouldn't be the first time), would then the beacon of freedom, the island of resistance in this global mess.
BTW I've never heard of a student salary, you've probably made that up as you've made up the French's laziness??
I'll leave you to ponder that, wherever you are since you've not displayed your location. _________________ ------------------------------------------------------
"It adds up. You just don't like what it adds up to" (The Sum of All Fears)
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: Re: What's up with France?
UIUCstudent01 wrote:
rogerhb wrote:
jaws wrote:
It's also weird in that the richest people, those who live in inner city Paris, also have the lowest rate of car ownership.
'Ow you say, er, taxi?
Bus, taxi, metro, train, why car?
Because busses and trains are for poor people. (Taxis are too expensive for everyday use, metro isn't instant gratification - plus it may be uncomfortable.)
*Sigh* another person with nil understanding of geography and European Culture. It never fails to impress me how ignorant Americans are of the rest of the world. Let's face it this is why America is seen as such a joke. Sorry couldn’t resist getting that in, see it as a friendly warning you are showing yourself up.
But back to 'What's wrong with France'. The French do things for the French; they don't do things for China or sell their workers down the road to line the pockets of esp American big business. In Europe (mostly France, Italy and Austria) family life and job security is seen as more important. With the advent of the rise of India and China, many of the old economies of the world (which includes most of Europe and America) are seen as progressively uncompetitive, what with laws, rules at home and above all cheap labour abroad. In short it's the natural rhythm of capitalism. While products can be had much more cheaply, wages get forces down by offshoring and immigration. The only also to this is for people to buy their own domestic goods and insist on the government they want. Unfortunately most people are basically ignorant of the economic realities, and I see only trouble and strife ahead.
Oh and buses and trains in Euope are not for poor people, they from the fabric of the country like airlines in the US.
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: What's up with France?
OverLord wrote:
Maybe you've got it backwards : the world is the sinking boat, worshipping a capitalist system that is unsustainable over the long term (or even the medium term)... a system that generates huge profits for those who have the most and enslaves the rest - that, is the harsh (indeed) reality which you seem to readily accept.
Fact is other western countries are doing just fine compared to France. But the French like to think their country is still worth something. As always France is one war late
Quote:
The French, (and it wouldn't be the first time), would then the beacon of freedom, the island of resistance in this global mess.
See that is why the world see the French as arrogant. France has the most restrictive freedom of speech of all western countries. France a beacon of freedom? what a joke!
Quote:
BTW I've never heard of a student salary, you've probably made that up as you've made up the French's laziness??
Segolene Royal? UNEF? LCR? PCF? Never heard of them?
And concerning the worldwide famous French laziness: when 70% of the youth dreams of working as "fonctionnaires", when people prefers to work 35 hours a week rather than have decent wages, when people would rather pay high taxes than take their futur into their own hands...in my book that is called laziness
Quote:
I'll leave you to ponder that
ponder what? I see that kind of worthless socialist crap all day long
Quote:
wherever you are since you've not displayed your location.
Joined: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 2640 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: What's up with France?
Hey, at least the French aren't complaining their electricity is too expensive. _________________ Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: What's up with France?
UIUCstudent01 wrote:
Because buses and trains are for poor people.
Wow. Demonstrating both a fundamental lack of understanding in regards to European mass transit and propagating a myth so pure it might as well have come straight from Robert Moses' own mouth. Bravo!
_________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Joined: Apr 06, 2005 Posts: 987 Location: 38 km west of Warsaw, Poland
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: What's up with France?
And just to clarify, I didn't say - "what's WRONG with France". All I said was - "what's up with France"? Not accusing, just curious from those in the know, what is happening in this country. Thanks for all the insight and opinions. Looks to me, like just another member of a disfunctional family -the human race.
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: What's up with France?
What's up with France is what's up everywhere socialism has run its course. We know France and Germany to be highly socialist countries with economic models that stand opposite the 'Anglo-Saxon' model of free markets, but the reality is that 20-30 years ago it was the other way around! France only embraced socialism when François Mitterand became president in 1981, at the time when British socialism was in full collapse. Britain adopted socialism shortly after WWII when Churchill was swept out of power by the Labor party. In France it was the conservative Gaullists (nationalists more than liberals, but still not full socialists) that ruled. West Germany as well was ruled by conservatives for a long time after the war, resulting in the German economic "miracle".
It took 20-30 years for British socialism to cause chaos, and we are now seeing that it has taken 20-30 years for French and German socialism to cause chaos. What is up with France is just an echo of what happened in Britain and it will end the same way.
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:13 am Post subject: Re: What's up with France?
Quote:
Fact is other western countries are doing just fine compared to France. But the French like to think their country is still worth something. As always France is one war late
To make my position clear, I think that yes, France is going down the drain... but I also think the whole (interdependent) planet is going down the drain wanting to imitate the unsustainable American way of life, and France is not necessarily the one closest to the slimy crap at the bottom.
What other western countries do you refer to anyway? What is your definition of "fine": highest GDP? highest number of billionaires? most liberal economies? this model may work for the short term, but again it's destructive and not sustainable, IMHO.
Quote:
See that is why the world see the French as arrogant. France has the most restrictive freedom of speech of all western countries. France a beacon of freedom? what a joke!
"most restrictive freedom of speech??????" I wonder where you got that. I'd say the opposite actually. At least we're still able to express our discontent, I'd even say we express it a little too often.
As for arrogance:
Quote:
But Frenchmen are just too lazy, too conservatist, too ideologically wasted...
Quote:
Todays Frenchmen are so incredibly stupid...
Now tell me, who's being arrogant?
Quote:
Segolene Royal? UNEF? LCR? PCF? Never heard of them?
I'm certainly not saying these people have the solutions, at least there is a variety of opinions in this country, people daring to think differently...
Quote:
And concerning the worldwide famous French laziness: when 70% of the youth dreams of working as "fonctionnaires", when people prefers to work 35 hours a week rather than have decent wages, when people would rather pay high taxes than take their futur into their own hands...in my book that is called laziness
Oversimplification, overgeneralization of the situation, by yet another person who obviously loves gratuitous French-bashing (sigh). If we can work less, it's because we are more productive! Ooooops, forgive my arrogance please! _________________ ------------------------------------------------------
"It adds up. You just don't like what it adds up to" (The Sum of All Fears)
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:27 am Post subject: Re: What's up with France?
He might have meant the copyright laws and slander laws for two, which are quite a problem, quite unbelievable and quite unfair, that is why US of A was formed. The people left and started their own country, E___didn't play fair by law.
Even now in parts of E___ and in western R and H, it is not illegal to have someone just killed. They dissappear and they do it regularly including Journalists. It isn't illegal. Because the law is whoever is in charge.
This includes the so called double jeopardy our founding US of A fathers forbids.
It isnt just in F ___, remember our founding fathers in US of A REMEMBERED those laws and thank God for Fr___, for without F___law and E___ laws, the founding fathers in the US of A would have never developed its bill of rights. they were the basis of our constitution and bill of rights WHICH COULD NEVER EXIST IN F___.
If you really want to know the problem, just google it:
And here is one about F___:
F___ - Annual Report 2003
Violence against journalists and increasing challenges to the confidentiality of sources marred 2002. Some parts of F___ press law are in clear contradiction with freedom of expression and make F___ one of the most backward countries in the E___ Union where freedom of information is concerned.
for more click here:
CLICK HERE FOR specific F examples
Here is the greatest Document Ever written by Man:
Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Read it and weep, if you life in another country.
Of course if you live in this country, you will notice that IV, V, VI, VIII, IX, are nullified but this is for our security.
amazing.
anyway the one I like is X
Did you know that if it is not specifically written in the Constitution or STATE LAW then you can make your own law and you are EMPOWERED!
AWESOME!
you have the force of the United sStates Government to make laws in your home! and they STAND!
AWESOME!
no country would dare do that, only people would do that. WE THE PEOPLE!
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"most restrictive freedom of speech??????" I wonder where you got that. I'd say the opposite actually. At least we're still able to express our discontent, I'd even say we express it a little too often. 
