Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Dust storms torment China as desertification worsens
Quote:
Oh wait, I forgot: Communist regime.
What does that have to do with anything? Considering the Han dynasty did the same thing in the area which is now called the Gobi desert, the ancient Persians and Babylonians doing the same thing in their respective areas, the Romans shitting up North Africa, and the Americans turning the great plains into a desert, I fail to see how a particular type of government has anything to do with a suicidally unstable configuration of food acquisition.
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Dust storms torment China as desertification worsens
I wonder if they can get it under control in time for the Olympics? Or will the Marathon be run wearing respirators? _________________ Good night, and good luck...
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1709 Location: East of Eden
Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Dust storms torment China as desertification worsens
Zardoz wrote:
"Poor farming practices?" How could they screw the pooch like this?
Oh wait, I forgot: Communist regime. Never mind...
Yeah, like we're doing any better over here... we've just got a newer resource base, is all. Ever read about the Dust Bowl?
This is one of the many problems that will probably be developing to crisis proportions. Unless, of course, climate change tips the other way and takes us into an Ice Age -- which leads to a whole different set of crises. And which, frankly, might just be the best damn thing we could hope for the planet at this point. Because sure as hell, things aren't going to remain the way they are. _________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
Joined: Dec 02, 2005 Posts: 6284 Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:45 am Post subject: Re: Dust storms torment China as desertification worsens
coyote wrote:
...Yeah, like we're doing any better over here... we've just got a newer resource base, is all. Ever read about the Dust Bowl?
Yeah, we're doing a ton better than this:
The Chinese government has begun moving large numbers of people from the country's north in response to the huge, choking dust storms which regularly sweep out of Inner Mongolia, over Beijing, and out towards the Pacific.
The dust storms, which can entirely envelop Beijing, have become an all too frequent event - and China's neighbours, Korea and Japan, have also complained about the oppressive billows of dust.
They are due to overgrazing and over-ploughing in Inner Mongolia, in the north of China, loosening the topsoil, which is then blown away by strong winds.
The Dust Bowl of the depression area was 70 years ago. We learned our lesson, and that episode was never repeated, although the Great Plains have seen many droughts, and the wind still blows like hell there.
How many people have moved out of the Great Plains due to dust storms in the last 70 years? "Newer resource base"? Huh?
The Chinese, on the other hand, have made a thorough mess of things. Have they learned nothing about topsoil management? How has this been allowed to happen?
Like I said: Communist regime. Are you aware of what the old Soviet Union left behind? The environmental degradation they inflicted will never be fully remediated. My sister has been to Kazakstan and Uzbekistan, and they told her stories of environmental atrocities the Soviets pulled that you wouldn't believe. Suffice to say that their way of dealing with extremely toxic waste was to pour it out onto the ground.
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:57 am Post subject: Re: Dust storms torment China as desertification worsens
Zardoz wrote:
The Chinese, on the other hand, have made a thorough mess of things. Have they learned nothing about topsoil management? How has this been allowed to happen?
This is all the more incredible coming from a civilization that has been agricultural for the last 6.000 years and should know everything there is to know about topsoil.
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1195 Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:16 am Post subject: Re: Dust storms torment China as desertification worsens
Doly wrote:
Zardoz wrote:
The Chinese, on the other hand, have made a thorough mess of things. Have they learned nothing about topsoil management? How has this been allowed to happen?
This is all the more incredible coming from a civilization that has been agricultural for the last 6.000 years and should know everything there is to know about topsoil.
They forgot. They got caught up in the modern 'green revolution' methods and forgot all they learned from 6000 years of sustainable agricultural practice. _________________ Kind regards, Katkinkate
"The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops,
but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
Masanobu Fukuoka
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1709 Location: East of Eden
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Dust storms torment China as desertification worsens
Zardoz wrote:
coyote wrote:
...Yeah, like we're doing any better over here... we've just got a newer resource base, is all. Ever read about the Dust Bowl?
Yeah, we're doing a ton better than this:
You're right, I misspoke myself. I agree, we are currently in a much better situation than they are; and our political system is way better. What I meant by 'not doing any better' is that we seem likely to eventually wind up in a similar situation, with our climate forcing and mismanagement of the Midwest topsoil, natural systems and Ogallala aquifer and other water resources. By 'newer resource base,' I simply meant that we haven't had nearly as long to screw up North America; but we're on our way.
I'm no more a fan of Communism than you are; and environmentally, I've been disgusted by, among many other things, the Chinese government's callous disregard for sulfur emissions, obtusely refusing to alter their behavior one iota until they were forced to by their own acid rain crisis. But unbridled globalized capitalism hasn't proved the best management of resources either, constantly maximizing short-term profits at the expense of natural systems. Which system is better? Ours, by light years. We at least stand a chance of learning to change -- though it'll never happen till voters get a clue about some of the issues we're facing. _________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
Joined: Nov 01, 2005 Posts: 796 Location: Euro high horse bastard on the run
Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Dust storms torment China as desertification worsens
Zardoz wrote:
Like I said: Communist regime. Are you aware of what the old Soviet Union left behind? The environmental degradation they inflicted will never be fully remediated. My sister has been to Kazakstan and Uzbekistan, and they told her stories of environmental atrocities the Soviets pulled that you wouldn't believe. Suffice to say that their way of dealing with extremely toxic waste was to pour it out onto the ground.
The best part is that the current regimes in Kazakstan and Uzbekistan and its "capitalistic" governments are working hard with a little help of BP to make it even worse mess then previously under commies..
The Stalin's crude oil fountains are still there, people living on the spot, happily inhaling this toxic and radioactive breeze..
There a tons of recent documentaries on this topic, The OilCrash and others.. _________________ DOOMerotron: at all-time high [8.1] out of 10..
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Dust storms torment China as desertification worsens
Glad someone mentioned this, I've been meaning to bring it up.
Aside from Africa (which I've already mentioned) there's been A LOT
of dust wafting off the coast of China this Spring, and it's getting worse.
This last storm is not unusual... it's just a worsening of what has become
normal conditions for this area.
Here's an unenhanced visible satellite shot from April 18:
Should be no need for the arrows. Starting on the far left the dust
gets picked up across Mongolia and China, crosses the sea and Japan,
then ends up getting wrapped into a storm off the north of Japan.
We're talking epic amounts of dust and pollution from this latest storm.
The whole area is so polluted the extent of it doesn't become apparent
until the dust starts to mix with the somewhat cleaner air over the ocean.
The 'Green Revolution' meets more and more people. Lots of marginal
land being ripped up to feed the hoard.
The other thread talking about how nasty coal is has got me down. We
seem to be doing a good job slowly poisoning ourselves.
The cheery thought is things will likely get worse, much worse, before
they get any better.
Added Bastardi, "While we cannot yet tell how long this current pattern will last, if you trust history, then the 2005 hurricane season just may portend the return of a major drought to the Great Plains."
_________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
Joined: Dec 04, 2004 Posts: 2337 Location: perpetual state of exhaustion
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Dust storms torment China as desertification worsens
Quote:
Scientists blame poor farming practices and drought for the expanding desert, which now covers a third of the vast country.
Considering how big China is that must be one big ass desert they are creating. Somehow planting trees around Beijing seems like a pretty futile gesture.
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1709 Location: East of Eden
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: Dust storms torment China as desertification worsens
Damn.... done some more research, that is one really really bad situation over there.
This is just the beginning. Get ready for a seriously f*cked up planet. _________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Dust storms torment China as desertification worsens
Interesting that communism was brought up as a damning non sequitur, especially when you consider that America's supposed superiority in topsoil and aquifer management practices came almost exclusively from New Deal programs like the CCC and the WPA, certainly quasi-socialist programs by any good libertarian's measure. _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: Re: Dust storms torment China as desertification worsens
Quote:
Considering how big China is that must be one big ass desert they are creating. Somehow planting trees around Beijing seems like a pretty futile gesture.
In my memory,we plant trees every year.When I was in grade school, high school and college school.There will be thrice or more big dust storm annually.China need take more unremitting , powerful and effective actions to control this matter.
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