Joined: Nov 26, 2007 Posts: 28 Location: Montreal (a.k.a. "Little Tehran")
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Obama, Huckabee win in Iowa
oowolf wrote:
What a comment on the times: A black dude named "Hussein" vs a Gomer Pyle clone.
I think you've got it figured on Huckabee. You intend to downgrade him by that comment, but most people relate better to Gomer Pyles than they do to the more shrewd type of leaders (like Russia's Putin.) Actually, if I was an American, I'd consider Huckabee, as I'd figure he's a responsible guy you can talk to and he's honest. Kind of like a friendly hardware store type of guy. The only big concern is if he's up to dealing with the likes of a Putin. Bush sure isn't.
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 2125 Location: Along the banks of the muddy Mississippi
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Obama, Huckabee win in Iowa
Mahmoud wrote:
Actually, if I was an American, I'd consider Huckabee, as I'd figure he's a responsible guy you can talk to and he's honest. Kind of like a friendly hardware store type of guy. The only big concern is if he's up to dealing with the likes of a Putin. Bush sure isn't.
Upon examination, I personally find no substantive difference between Bush and Huckabee. Except I don't think Bush can jam on a bass guitar. To me, I think a Huckabee win in November would just be four more years of the same. Which is why I suspect he has a good chance of being elected. _________________ “Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry)
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 393 Location: Windy City No Longer
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Obama, Huckabee win in Iowa
Mahmoud wrote:
oowolf wrote:
What a comment on the times: A black dude named "Hussein" vs a Gomer Pyle clone
I think you've got it figured on Huckabee. You intend to downgrade him by that comment, but most people relate better to Gomer Pyles than they do to the more shrewd type of leaders (like Russia's Putin.) Actually, if I was an American, I'd consider Huckabee, as I'd figure he's a responsible guy you can talk to and he's honest. Kind of like a friendly hardware store type of guy. The only big concern is if he's up to dealing with the likes of a Putin. Bush sure isn't.
There's an old saying in American politics (Mark Twain?) that goes, "People like to vote for someone just like themselves. Sooner or later, they'll get just that - an absolute moron." I'm not saying Huckabee is a moron, but I don't care if these guys are fun to talk to. Give me someone with Joe Biden's foreign policy experience, Ron Paul's convictions about the constitution and Obama's inspirational ability.
As long as we're talking dream candidates, it'd be nice to find one who can find a way to make Americans quit passing off responsibility to the next generation and deal with government debt, global warming, and peak oil- as well as get us out of Iraq, cure cancer and invent a fat-free chocolate that tastes as good as the real thing. _________________ TANSTAAFL
Joined: Sep 25, 2004 Posts: 4422 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Obama, Huckabee win in Iowa
I'd say there's a fair degree of difference between Bush and Huckabee.
Huckabee:
Quote:
The most important thing about global warming is this. Whether humans are responsible for the bulk of climate change is going to be left to the scientists, but it's all of our responsibility to leave this planet in better shape for the future generations than we found it.
Bush:
Quote:
It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it.
Huckabee:
Quote:
Pray a little more, work a little harder, save, wait, be patient and, most of all, live within our means. That's the American way. It's not spending ourselves into prosperity or taxing ourselves into prosperity.
Bush: _________________ "www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
Joined: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 498 Location: USS Poland
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Obama, Huckabee win in Iowa
I was watching Iowa caucus on CNN all night... Quite surprising for me. Obama defeated Hillary and moreover Edwards finished second. I was wondering about the negative electorate in Democratic Party, and still I think that Hillary may aggrevate many democrats. Iraq is just an example but health care is kiss of death (remember 'Sicko'?). I really consider her as the worst candidate for liberals, she has no views and she can change her mind anytime.
Dems:
1. Rockstar.
2. Nerd.
3. The Witch or "Bush Witch Project"
Reps:
1. Ultra-christian.
2. Mormon.
3. Bishop pretending an actor.
4. Baptist.
5. Pope. (5th creationist on the Rep list, and he encourages forced prayer).
Unbelievable, are there any atheists in Republican Party? Republican Party looks more like Legion of Jesus than "REPUBLICAN" party... What does it mean Republican now? When it comes to social issues it's easy - they all look like ultra-right christian conservatives. Jefferson rolls in grave.
Tyler - there is a fair degree of difference between Bush and others - on surface. Everyone can tell you "live within your means" and will tell you this sincerely - until first budget... _________________ The poor complain; they always do,
But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all,
At least to all who matter.
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 2125 Location: Along the banks of the muddy Mississippi
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Obama, Huckabee win in Iowa
Tyler_JC wrote:
I'd say there's a fair degree of difference between Bush and Huckabee.
Ahh, but what did Bush say before he got elected, Tyler? _________________ “Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry)
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Obama, Huckabee win in Iowa
Quote:
Ahh, but what did Bush say before he got elected, Tyler?
Quote:
When he left, it was $16.5 billion. But using inflation-adjusted figures, the increase is "only" from $8.5 billion to $12.7 billion.
Linky
Taking everything else into account, his annual growth rate of spending was 4.9%, which would put him just under Bush and slightly ahead of liberal LBJ. Not very good company. At least with regards to spending. Throw a major war or two that this evangelical could very well start and the sky is the limit. _________________ I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
Joined: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 498 Location: USS Poland
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
smallpoxgirl wrote:
Instead of trying to fix overpopulation, Ron Paul wants to ban abortion. He wants to take our single most important problem and make it worse. If you're not willing to address population, any other talk about libertarian ideals is a pipe dream.
Before someone argues that he's going to fix illegal immigration and that will solve our population problem, about 700,000 people enter the US illegally per year and about 1,000,000 get abortions. If you could somehow stop both illegal immigration and abortion, our annual population growth rate would increase by 300,000 people per year.
1. Leaving things social/moral stand is funny - what's the problem with bribing politicians locally? Churches can fund it... corporations can fund it.
2. Libertarianism doesn't work - free market is built on permanent growth. Only growth in free market gives you the taste of freedom, because each year more and more products are available, once you cannot increase the productivity social structure freezes, and then collapses or becomes slavery.
Worse scenario - private property is so saint that you can chop your last tree, even if it means death of thousands.
If you don't pollute because you are enviromental freak you can be outcompeted, because those without concerns can maximize profit, cut the costs and increase productivity. Period. In free market you have permanent competitor, growth is higher, cost of this growth can be lethal
Even von Hayek noticed relation between social organization and growth of everything. But Hayek for libertarians is statist, commie, whatever...
3. He is creationist (and this expresses everything what I think about his scientific base).
4. Iraq is one thing, UN is second thing. When UN call for something everyone is waiting for Americans to do something. United States have longest record of vetoes, and United Nations will never impose anything on United States. Look at Resolution 242. Yeah, whatever...
Country which is against multilateralism sell guns to everyone. That's what I think about his "peace". Commerce means also guns, not in official contracts but by your secret service, get real... secret services will exist, they need always more money than their budget, and when everybody is doing this around the world it's better to compete and have your factories working.
5. He supported Reagan reforms which slowly destroy middle-class (middle-class in history appeared as a huge group together with welfare state).
6. I don't agree with libertarian definition of freedom, in my opinion it's very dangerous, narcissist and infantile. Negative freedom from almost everything is positive freedom to boundless greed.
I also reject definition of state as a criminal gang while it doesn't recognize social contract, and the rule of law based on that contract.
7. Overturning Roe v. Wade is impossible unless court can do this. Talking what courts should do as a representative of legislative branch is against separation of powers. What he as a self-proclaimed 'defender of constitution' should know.
8. Homeschooling by working mothers is not possible. State education was created to fight illiteracy of growing population and to outcompete churches in higher education. Without state education private system will create illiteracy as many people won't be able to afford that, especially mothers working now. This can be return to preindustrial times and destruction of woman freedom of choice.
9. With greater structures and organization, with more products transported and sold, with more people on the planet, with more diseases and ilnesses, with more knowledge and science to produce, inform, educate and control it's a joke that one can be free while he is depndant on so many products and achievements, and it's a joke to let it go without any control.
There will be always control and power, if there is no state control there will be private control of corporations, and this is happening in the US when lobbysts are buying laws. Nothing will change.
America was once libertarian country but it needed slaves. _________________ The poor complain; they always do,
But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all,
At least to all who matter.
Joined: Dec 02, 2005 Posts: 6284 Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:19 am Post subject: Re: Obama, Huckabee win in Iowa
The Republican nomination is truly up for grabs. It's been a very long time since it's been so wide open:
It's far from a first-round knockout for the GOP _________________ "Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
Joined: Sep 17, 2006 Posts: 623 Location: No man's land
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
In the chart I referred to above, Ron Paul falls more into the authoritarian part of the spectrum than the libertarian part. This is because abusive power structures step in where government has stepped out. _________________ "It is no measure of health to be deemed sane in an insane society" J. Krishnamurti
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
All this just convinces me that my only hope is to complete my preps soon and call on the Powers for a fast crash soon thereafter. Otherwise it seems that freedom and possibly survival become...ah, highly unlikely. _________________ Remember every mighty oak tree started with some nut who stood their ground.
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
Right wing libertarian's great weakness is that they don't understand that the govt, has already conceded most of it's power to corporations. I don't know exactly where Paul stands on this.
Everytime the idea of "freedom" comes up, several paradoxes are automatically activated. Is there a system that enhances personal freedom while honoring the planet, and respecting limits to growth? These may not be compatible concepts. In fact, the future, may rest on a reduction of personal freedom. We may have to compromise freedom to maximize human dignity.
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
Alcassin wrote:
1. Leaving things social/moral stand is funny - what's the problem with bribing politicians locally? Churches can fund it... corporations can fund it.
2. Libertarianism doesn't work - free market is built on permanent growth. Only growth in free market gives you the taste of freedom, because each year more and more products are available, once you cannot increase the productivity social structure freezes, and then collapses or becomes slavery.
Worse scenario - private property is so saint that you can chop your last tree, even if it means death of thousands.
If you don't pollute because you are enviromental freak you can be outcompeted, because those without concerns can maximize profit, cut the costs and increase productivity. Period. In free market you have permanent competitor, growth is higher, cost of this growth can be lethal
Even von Hayek noticed relation between social organization and growth of everything. But Hayek for libertarians is statist, commie, whatever...
I guess I sort of agree with that, but for different reasons. I think that libertarianism requires a low population density, and readily available wilderness. One of the central themes of libertarianism is lassez faire economics....for example people should be free to sell their labor to an employer or not, and they should be able to freely negotiate a wage without government interference. That's all well and good if there is empty land and you have the option of moving to the wilderness, building a cabin, hunting for food etc. If your only other option is to sleep on a street corner, beg for food, and get arrested every time you try to take a piss, then it's not like you have the option of telling the boss to sod off. It creates an non-voluntary bargaining environment. I think that libertarianism can work quite nicely at steady state, but only at relatively low population densities and with significant amounts of intact ecosystem available. _________________ "I was born in a deep forest
I wish I could live here all my life
I am made from stones and roots
My home, these woods and roads
All my life I loved this sound
Of the woods all around
Eagles fly where the winds blow free" -Korpiklaani
Joined: Jul 17, 2004 Posts: 486 Location: Amerika (most of the time)
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:27 am Post subject: Re: Arguments AGAINST Ron Paul?
I saw Ron Paul yesterday on CNN and it was like a breath of fresh air. He was articulate and extremely intelligent. He could talk about foreign policy and made some excellent points about inflation and the stupidity of the FED right now. He also didn't lean on stupid catchphrases. Ron Paul has just gained a supporter and I am going to give his campaign some money. (The only problem is that if he won I think he would be assassinated post haste). _________________ Simon's Law: Everything put together falls apart sooner or later.
I don't think of all the misery, but of all the beauty that still remains.--Anne Frank
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