Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Is slavery nothing more than slavery with constant economic growth?
yes
51%
[ 29 ]
no
28%
[ 16 ]
I'm just waiting to strike it rich.
19%
[ 11 ]
Total Votes : 56
Author
Message
Concerned Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Sep 23, 2004 Posts: 1553
Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Is capitalism nothing more than slavery with growth?
abelardlindsay wrote:
Kaare_Mai wrote:
It is funny to see how americans who never set a foot outside their country can dismiss other types of systems...
I live in Denmark, and as most of europe, Denmark is a socialistic country.
We have no poor people. - Not a single person in Denmark has to live on the street.
Not a single person has to pay a dime to go to the doctor or hospital.
We have very little crime and 99% of the population has never seen a gun with their own eyes.
Denmark is the home for several danish companies that are known world wide.
We pay 6.2$ / gallon at the pump and 40% income tax, and not a single soul are complaining. Why? Because we're wealthy. We have nice houses, plasma TV's, cars, internet, 7 weeks of vacation without the special holidays and weekends calculated in.
So don't come here and tell me that socialism doesnt work... Im glad not to live in the arogant, self centered, gun-loving america where their own people are forced to suffer when a storm hits their shores...
Wow so at current prices that's about $1500 a year in per person oil revenues. Well that and a 40% tax rate and no oil imports makes 7 week vacations pretty easy. Ever notice that all the socialist miracle countries like Canada, Norway, Denmark, have huge domestic energy reserves? America was pretty damned nice to live in during the 50s and 60s too...
I think the best you can get with social democracy without oil is Japan.
Yes and under capatilism you would have a handful of wealthy owners that take all the wealth while the people remain impoverished.
I'd rather have a mixed economy where there is an incentive to produce and some of the profits go back to the people.
FWIW the USA is a socalist country, taxes are socalist/communist (redistribution of wealth outside the market economy).
Capatilism will fail (as it has in the past) by not re-distributing wealth and benefits of productivity growth to the greater majority.
Both free market libertarians and communist idealogues are working from a theroetical perspective that as far as Im concerned does not pan out in the real world. _________________ "Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
-Italian Proverb
Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: Is capitalism nothing more than slavery with growth?
MaxDWolf wrote:
My one disagreement with you is just one regarding choice of wording. Self-interest, putting oneself first, is good. I would differentiate between this and greed. Greed is (by definition) inordinate desire and/or acquisitiveness. To want to enjoy the fruits of your labors and even fair conquests is reasonable self interest. To refuse to acknowledge any right of society to ask you to contribute to the common good is greedy.
Society is an abstraction. It does not have rights. Only individuals have rights and these rights themselves are abstractions.
If one person existed on the earth, then rights would be irrevelant, for he would do as he pleases without regard to anyone else as they would not exits. When two people exist, then it becomes a problem as to conflicts over behavior and danger to oneanother. The idea of rights can come into existence as a system to prevent agression against one another. The idea of right to life and property rights are sensible means to make life functional and safe, but only if everyone agrees that the most functional system is a system of rights rather than a system of kill and be killed by the most powerful. Rights come out of enlightened minds; power struggle comes out of brutish minds.
Rights were invented in the minds of man to protect men, not society.
Your concept that society has rights and people have obligations to contribute to socitey is absurd, and has no basis in logic. If one decides to give up some of his property rights and contribute to others it is only an outgrowth of his good will, and not his obligation. To say that one has an obligation to socitey is to advocate slavery, and ownership of an individual by socitey.
Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject: Re: Is capitalism nothing more than slavery with growth?
MrBill wrote:
Oh, I think many are saying that capitalism and the market economy are to blame for all our problems like peak oil? Nevermind that it is a geological fact. But there you go.
Well, I think Cuba is an example of a fabulously well-run country with a socialist government and centrally planned economy, so long as a Russia, or China or Venezuela is always at hand to pay the bills and provide cheap energy imports.
Speaking on Venezuela. Another great example of an economy running on all cylinders and creating wealth.
Quote:
CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Taxi driver Jaime Tinoco works the streets of Caracas in a 1976 Chevy Nova that guzzles 19 gallons (72 liters) of gas a day. But he doesn't worry about fuel efficiency -- filling his tank costs just
$2.30.
While U.S. consumers struggle with soaring energy prices, Venezuela's gas is now the world's cheapest at 12 cents a gallon and Washington's regional foe, President Hugo Chavez, vows to maintain subsidies that keep fuel dirt-cheap.
"Those gringos have everything -- so why does their gas cost so much?" asked Tinoco between chuckles as he navigated a midday traffic jam. "Don't they have oil reserves?"
Chavez, a self-proclaimed socialist and critic of President Bush, has even begun subsidizing fuel for poor U.S. neighborhoods as U.S. consumers brace for average summer gas prices of $2.71 a gallon -- 34 cents higher than last summer.
In Venezuela, the world's No. 5 oil exporter, drivers fill their tanks for less than the price of a cheap breakfast, and love to point out that gasoline costs less than mineral water.
The nation's gasoline is now the world's cheapest, according to an International Monetary Fund report released in April that shows Venezuelan gas prices as about a third of those in oil-producing giant Saudi Arabia.
Shiny SUVs and rusty 1970s-era sedans share the streets of Venezuelan cities as drivers shrug off fuel costs.
Low-priced fuel is considered a birthright in Venezuela, which sells 1.2 million barrels per day of oil to the United States -- the world's biggest gas guzzler.
"Gasoline should stay cheap the way it is, that's why we have oil in Venezuela," said Maria Rosa Pinero, 55, a housewife, filling up a Volkswagen Gol at a gas station in eastern Caracas.
Chavez has extended Venezuela's fuel subsidy to poor Americans through a well-publicized jab at the U.S. government that offers 40 percent discounts on heating oil distributed by Venezuelan-owned refiner Citgo.
Flush with cash from high oil revenues, Chavez has also shored up regional alliances by providing low-priced fuel to Central American and Caribbean nations he says have been snubbed by the United States.
'HOOD ROBIN' SUBSIDY
Venezuela's gas subsidy is the subject of endless grumbling by economists who say it promotes consumer waste and costs the state billions of dollars in lost revenue.
Critics say the subsidy largely benefits middle and upper-class vehicle owners at the expense of government income that could be spent on the poor.
"They call it the 'Hood Robin' subsidy," said Jose Luis Cordeiro, a petroleum engineer who writes about energy issues. "Instead of stealing from the rich to give to the poor, it's the opposite."
He estimates Venezuela would have taken in at least an additional $8 billion last year -- almost 8 percent of the nation's GDP -- if Venezuelans had paid market rates for fuel.
The subsidy also encourages rampant fuel smuggling to neighboring Colombia and leads to huge lines of Brazilian drivers waiting to fill up along the southern border.
But past efforts to raise gas prices have not gone well. Authorities in 1989 raised fuel prices at the height of a recession, leading to three days of rioting during which at least 300 people were killed. Human rights groups say troops may have killed several thousand people.
The event marked a turning point in Venezuelan history, and served as inspiration for Chavez -- at the time a young army officer -- to lead a coup attempt three years later. The coup failed but helped propel Chavez into the presidency in 1998.
Chavez has maintained popularity by channeling oil revenues toward social programs for the poor, and has often criticized U.S. dependence on cheap gasoline. Washington says he is using his oil wealth to threaten regional democracy.
At Venezuelan gas stations, however, there are few complaints about low-cost fuel or fuel efficiency.
"People buy a car because it's comfortable or because it's big," said Isidro Rodriguez, 30, an accountant, as he filled up a new 4-wheel-drive Ford in southern Caracas. "It's not for the price of fuel, because that's never been a problem."
HOwever, let us not forget Bolivia. That up and coming regional powerhouse. Thanks for the help to develop our oil & gas, now get out. Hey, it worked for Venezuela and look how wealthy they are?
But just one question. When these superpowers have squandered their natural resources and are bankrupt again, should the World Bank and IMF lend to them again? How many strikes before they are out? Or like Argentina, do we just keep lending and crossing our fingers? Talk about socialism. That is a bottomless pit for international goodwill and lending.
I generally do not like Mr. Bill, because of his involvement and defense of the fiat money creating and ripoff system, but I will agree that his post here is eloquent and dead center.
Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: Is capitalism nothing more than slavery with growth?
Kaare_Mai wrote:
It is funny to see how americans who never set a foot outside their country can dismiss other types of systems...
I live in Denmark, and as most of europe, Denmark is a socialistic country.
We have no poor people. - Not a single person in Denmark has to live on the street.
Not a single person has to pay a dime to go to the doctor or hospital.
We have very little crime and 99% of the population has never seen a gun with their own eyes.
Denmark is the home for several danish companies that are known world wide.
We pay 6.2$ / gallon at the pump and 40% income tax, and not a single soul are complaining. Why? Because we're wealthy. We have nice houses, plasma TV's, cars, internet, 7 weeks of vacation without the special holidays and weekends calculated in.
So don't come here and tell me that socialism doesnt work... Im glad not to live in the arogant, self centered, gun-loving america where their own people are forced to suffer when a storm hits their shores...
Kid, you are still sucking on your mother's tit, only it is the now the tit of your rulers who are exploiting your fellow citizens as the source of milk. If your mind was not so screwed up by your government owned and operated indoctranation schools, you might be able to post some original thouht rather than parrot what has been implanted in your brain.
Were Denmark not peddling drugs and sex to repressed British tourist, you would be living the life of third world serfs.
Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:41 am Post subject: Re: Is capitalism nothing more than slavery with growth?
Quote:
I generally do not like Mr. Bill, because of his involvement and defense of the fiat money creating and ripoff system, but I will agree that his post here is eloquent and dead center.
This is not junior high school. I am not here to be liked. I am here to discuss ideas, some of which are not popular either. However, this debate about social systems is getting old. For your guide, the FIAT money system, as you describe it, also erodes the value of my savings. I am not happy about that either, but at least I understand a little how this system does and does not work, so I am ahead of 51% of PO posters on this subject! ; - )
As with regards to Denmark, I personally like the country, so I am not going to say anything bad about it. However, I have met more Danes living and working in the UK & Germany than Germans or English trying to live and work in Denmark? I guess Denmark, like most high tax, cradle to grave, social democracies places a lot of communal value on making sure no one falls through the cracks? Admirable, but if I compare Denmark to other Skandinavian countries, I would not say EVERYONE willingly pays up and is happy about it.
Many Nordic companies list their shares abroad to avoid punitively high taxes. Those taxes then do not go to support those cherished social programs as this article on IKEA makes clear. Yes, I know Sweden is not Denmark, but their social models are similar. Also, I know that the reception to foreigners looking for political assylum or economic migration is eroding popular support for these programs. Danes and others are saying enough is enough.
In defense of capitalism I would like to point out that trademark protection, which socialist governments are not keen to defend, protect two of those international companies that Denmark is so proud of - Carlsberg and Lego. Carlsberg is brewed under license around the world, but without its protected trademark, anyone could make an inferior beer and label it Carlsberg eroding its reputation, or in fact just take the recipe and brew it without paying rent to Carlsberg.
Also, without trademark protection, China can produce all the Lego that the world will ever want or need undercutting Denmark on price through economies of scale, and therefore depriving those Danish workers of an income on which to pay those high taxes to protect their cozy social system.
Let's face it, without Greenland, and any oil & gas that might be in the Arctic, Denmark's biggest asset happens to be that it is close to Germany, Denmark's largest trading partner. Especially, this year, with all those football fans drinking Carlsberg beer during The World Cup! Maybe their families will visit Legoland in Germany while they are there? ; - ) _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Dec 25, 2004 Posts: 446 Location: Salem, MA
Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Is capitalism nothing more than slavery with growth?
Capitalism as it is currently practiced in America is State-Capitalism and as such, is basically an elaborate system of social control. We are wage-slaves. We do not have a free market. Nor are we socialist. It is a state-socialist system, also known as state-capitalism. It is a doubly bastardized form of capitalism and socialism all mish-mashed into one. State-capitalism is capitalism without freedom, socialism without eqaulity, and can only grow into a totalitarian police-state, which is where we are headed. _________________ UNLESS
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