UK: Would you steal food from allotments etc?

SoothSayer

Serious question for city/town dwellers:

If things got bad would YOU roam the countryside looking for food?

Would you steal it from allotments, gardens & fields?

Would you expect to be dealt with VERY harshly if caught?

Just wondering ... I need to make defense plans Smile

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Technology will save us!

Wildwell · Fission Joined: Feb 03, 2005 Posts: 2080 Location: UK

Do you want the honest answer?

I have never stolen anything in my life, even pens from work, I don't intend to steal or hurt anyone...I'm guilty of occasionally going over the speed limit, not always paying council tax on time but generally I'm one of those 'law abiding citizens'.

However..

Now the question you ask I've thought about myself. My plan B is to obtain a house with a fair amount of land, somewhere out the way (Yorkshire, Devon perhaps) and grow everything plus run a wind turbine, run on log burning stoves etc...

However, if the crap did hit the fan, how would you defend it? Now here's a test UK peak oilers...Go out and drive to a remote part of the country, perhaps the lakes, Exmoor, North Yorkshire, Lincolnshire. Park up somewhere that you think is quiet and time how long it takes before someone comes along. They'll be someone along within the hour, almost guaranteed. Possibly even the police, wondering what you are doing. So, the bottom line is there is very few locations in the UK, you'll be able to hide away in should it all go *** up. Therefore you must think about defence - but you're going to need a lot of it.

What would you do if a crowd of 100 people came along, looking for food or shelter? You might be able to deal with a couple of people, but unless you have military training, weapons and defence, I doubt many more. In fact, I doubt in a real crisis the police and the military would last five minutes either - after all, 1000 UK military personnel have deserted forces in Iraq. They’d simply be out numbered.

So I concluded, it's probably worth going for but actually in a real crisis fairly pointless.

Would I steal? Well, here's another test. Don't eat anything for a few days - it's amazing what packets you'll get out of the cupboard. When you start feeling weak, even your most hated foods suddenly start looking rather nicer. Eventually it's either a case of the suicide pills or fight for your survival. Quite honestly I’d get your friends and family and try and leave the country – but where you would go it’s not an easy solution. Good luck. Trust me, the only solutions are national ones in reality else it’s pot luck.

Would I expect to get dealt with harshly? Of course. But that’s the risk you take, and you would expect to have to show at least some force to fight back.

EnergyUnlimited · Fission Joined: May 15, 2006 Posts: 2918

I think that possible looters would stay in close vincity of towns and cities.
They would first loot supermarkets, groceries etc, then they would rob each other, then with many wounds, they would run out of steam and die off in their surroundings.
They would not go (in any significant numbers) to loot countryside for the reason of luck of transport, and/or stamina required and local folks would "unite forces" to defeat some small groups of looters anyway.

Actual "fight for food" would boil down to massive disruption in towns/cities and their close surroundings.

SoothSayer

I'm one of those 'law abiding citizens'.
Me too.

My plan B is to obtain a house with a fair amount of land, somewhere out the way (Yorkshire, Devon perhaps) and grow everything plus run a wind turbine, run on log burning stoves etc...
That's our plan too. We are already rural ... but need more land.
However having a wizzo smallholding like that could lead to:
- council confiscation
- military confiscation
- unwanted interest from unprepared neighbours
- unwanted interest from disant relatives
- being a target for gangs seeking a safe place to hole up
- being bothered by refugees

Therefore you must think about defence - but you're going to need a lot of it.
Good point. That would need good planning - don't want to get arrested prior to any collapse for possession of heavy duty items.

What would you do if a crowd of 100 people came along, looking for food or shelter?
There are a few options:
- Run away and hide until they hopefully pass through.
- Stay and look poor & hungry (having hidden any goodies) .. and hope the new arrivals are not into rape or forcible religious conversions.
- Stay and fight - but, as you say, that would need heavy duty weapons.

Quite honestly I’d get your friends and family and try and leave the country – but where you would go it’s not an easy solution.
Exactly - somewhere the Isle of Man seems to make sense ... but the locals might not be too keen on boat refugees! Have you any other suggestions?

Would I expect to get dealt with harshly? Of course. But that’s the risk you take, and you would expect to have to show at least some force to fight back.
Which confirms my expectation that many new arrivals would be armed in some way.

All this is leading me to think that only a heavily armed settlement would survive long term. However, as in most places, most of my neighbours would be useless in this role. You would have to set up a dedicated hamlet of like minded souls in advance.

I wonder if it's worth setting up an informal network of like minded well-equipped contacts who would set up camp together when the bad times arrived?

The main snag could be the period between the good times and the bad times ... there could be months or years of increasing hardship and tough policing before things finally fell apart. The powers-that-be ... or personal need ... could have depleted most of your reserves of goodies (& health) before the big crunch came.

Another approach would be to hide away a stash of goodies and forget about them for as long as possible. This would require you to attempt to survive like everyone else ... but at the very end you would leave your locale and set up shop deep in the woods with tents etc.

Or you simply join the police or army and become one of the "bosses" !
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Technology will save us!

TorrKing

Living a semi-nomadic lifestyle in the forest would probably be the safest in the UK. Only lighting fires in the night and always move stealthy.

From what I understand the UK teems with roe deer, badgers, rabbits and foxes. All edible. Bows and arrows can help you avoid detection. And the women could gather roots etc. and trap small animals.

Unless you start building castles again that is. They could probably be pretty safe.

Farmers are generally sitting ducks, a hunter-gatherer can find a meal almost anywhere and can move camp if the raiders come too close.

Torjus Gaaren

Jack · Moderator Joined: Aug 11, 2004 Posts: 4929

Andrew_S · Intermediate Crude Joined: Jan 09, 2005 Posts: 683

rushdy · Heavy Crude Joined: Nov 21, 2005 Posts: 120

You're right about North Yorkshire by the way. We're really not that remote at all.

All the good places already have small towns and villages dotted around every few miles. There are remote places about, but they're not somewhere you'd want to live thats for sure!

I wouldn't steal from allotments, I would hopefully have my own. Or be making use of my garden. I've no doubt I could roam the countryside, I do a lot of walking, but it wouldn't be as glamarous as it sounds if it's windy as hell and pissing it down.

SoothSayer

Sheesh - pls stay in Texas Jack ... Smile

My main worry would be large numbers of - err - multicultural city dwellers coming into the country in vehicle convoys.

We have over a million of this sort of citizen in our local city.

I don't think that they will want to chat or negotiate, if what happens in Iraq, Pakistan, Indonesia etc is anything to go by.

Can you imagine trying to fend of 50 or 100 of their young men armed with butchers knives ... <shudder> ...
_________________
Technology will save us!

TorrKing

Andrew

You have a point, but there are forested field edges and small forests to follow everywhere. It shouldn't be a problem. That is where the animals themselves hide so.

Torjus Gaaren

Andrew_S · Intermediate Crude Joined: Jan 09, 2005 Posts: 683

Andrew_S · Intermediate Crude Joined: Jan 09, 2005 Posts: 683

Wildwell · Fission Joined: Feb 03, 2005 Posts: 2080 Location: UK

Hmn, well, you’ve got to look at realistic scenarios here. For a start it’s not all going to go bad in a day. The best lessons to learn are from the fuel blockades and the Arab oil crisis. Let’s remind ourselves how fuel was prioritised. People could still get about on public transport and I guess if it went on any longer the government would have sent to army in for fuel for essential food supplies. Governments do have contingency plans. Obviously given time the economy would have badly suffered.

Would people migrate toward towns and cities, or away? Well, I think like minded people in villages could form some local co-operative with local farmers. Longer term it’s of course a lot more difficult – I certainly wouldn’t want to be without a car in North Yorkshire, but as everyone knows it’s quite possible to survive in cities without one. Growing your own food means if the weather is bad you’ll starve anyway, although I think there’s a place for the allotment culture that went on during and just after the war.

I can’t see any scenario where people would be allowed to ‘starve’ in cities – I mean it’s not going to just be left to the market, the police will occupy fuel stations and certain industry will get special treatment. The worst that’s going to happen is a reduction in speed limits and rationing, for a while, then perhaps a radical rethink of how business is done, coupled with a severe recession.

I would imagine that we’d go back to the canal/rail based localised hub and spoke type systems popular before the 1960s and the only driving would be really by strict license, at least until an alterative is found, and even then we’d perhaps never get back to basing life around private cars, at least in the same way. Obviously business would be hit hard as some (but not all) people struggle to work and local deliveries are disrupted, but I’d imagine there would be a certain amount of (unpopular) prioritisation.

I think the idea of communes in the UK is too far fetched, it’s too heavily populated. I know some people in the cities think when they get out to Slough it’s ‘in the sticks’ but really, even in some of the more remote parts of Yorkshire are not that remote at night there would be the haze of the street lamps of Teeside to the east and West Yorkshire (Leeds/Bradford conurbation) to the south. And that’s about the most remote part of England. Scotland is better, but then you have the bad weather and isolation to cope with. The most remote part of the country is Western Scotland, where you can drive at night it pitch black and be mesmerised by the snow poles.

Which means escape: Realistically, there are not too many places in Europe that are going to offer ‘problem free’ solutions. In France, you have a nuclear powered electricity supply situation, with a half decent electrified rail network for transport solutions. But then French love to strike and I would imagine wouldn’t appreciate outsiders in a national crisis. Switzerland and Austria look tempting, with their power supply mix, transportation, relative wealth and so on, but parts are heavily populated and they are transit countries. If there was widespread migration, these places are not the best to be. Scandinavia is probably the best bet, a ready supply of fuel if nothing else, and few people, but it isn’t the warmest place in Europe.

Outside of Europe, you will have to cope with Canadian/Australian/US/New Zealand immigration laws, and there’s no way they are going to let people in during a crisis. Personally I think the US could be potential hell and may not even survive as a united states. Which leaves dodgy third world, accession or very poor countries - and most of these are going to be hit harder than richer countries which can afford to buy oil.

Personally I’m going to stay put and see what happens, only if it got really bad I’d attempt to move out. Expect to see intense re-organisation rather than absolute panic though over a period of years if some of the predications come true.

Jack · Moderator Joined: Aug 11, 2004 Posts: 4929

newhunter-gatherer

Right about now I would be investing in a decent mountain bike. Preferably a decent lightweight hardtail for minimum maintainance. You should be able to pick a new one up for £800. Kona make some very strong bikes. Stock up on parts such as brake pads, tyres (folding), inner tubes, cables, spare chain, and lube etc. Buy some decent all weather cycling clothes and a large 'camelback' waterbladder backpack and start cycling NOW. Train 3 times per wk and try and do at least 20 miles on each ride. Buy some tools and learn bicycle repair too. If escaping the hordes of starving office workers is your main concern, you need to be fit and mobile. Both you and your machine have to be in good shape. Regards bagging food and protection, a bow and arrow like some people have mentioned sounds a bit far fetched. Do you have any bow and arrow making skills?. I don't Sad

A lightweight pump action air rifle with a sling on it would be a better choice. Crossman make some decent air arms for a reasonable price, and you could carry a couple of thousand of pellets in your backpack no problem. Also look into a good survival kit which I'm sure you already have. If the trucks stop rolling into Tesco's and souplines ensue, the masses in the city will become desperate and the allotments will get picked over first.