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Graeme
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Joined: Mar 04, 2005
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Location: New Zealand
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 Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject: Capitalism is the answer to Global Warming |
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Capitalism is the answer to Global Warming
| Quote: | There has never been a palatable way for the national government to get Canadians to use less gasoline. Hiking taxes is opposite to what Canadians clamour for when prices rise; rationing went out of style in WWII; inducements like public transit installations cost too much in both treasure and political capital; and legislation, like even-odd license plate days, grate too much.
Enter “Cap-and-Trade.” Cap and Trade systems impose restrictions on no one in particular, but rather impose an overall restriction on everyone combined, and leaves it to individuals to make their own choices in a free market environment.
For gasoline, a Cap and Trade system would first offer at auction permits to purchase 48 billion litres—the amount Canada now consumes in total each year. Each individual makes their own calculation about how many permits they need, and decides how much they are willing to spend. |
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Kylon
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Joined: Aug 12, 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: Capitalism is the answer to Global Warming |
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| I like it! |
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Concerned
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Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 1501
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: Capitalism is the answer to Global Warming |
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| Graeme wrote: | Capitalism is the answer to Global Warming
| Quote: | There has never been a palatable way for the national government to get Canadians to use less gasoline. Hiking taxes is opposite to what Canadians clamour for when prices rise; rationing went out of style in WWII; inducements like public transit installations cost too much in both treasure and political capital; and legislation, like even-odd license plate days, grate too much.
Enter “Cap-and-Trade.” Cap and Trade systems impose restrictions on no one in particular, but rather impose an overall restriction on everyone combined, and leaves it to individuals to make their own choices in a free market environment.
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LOL yeah imposes restrictions on no one in particular except the middle class. And with the amount of permits decreasing and their value increasing year to year Im sure the middle class will have no problem getting gasoline. 
Add an extra inefficient bureaucratic layer where the wealthy can buy all the permits they need, sounds great where do we sign up?
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WildRose
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Joined: Jun 21, 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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That's right - as the price of gasoline increases, the only people bidding for the permits would be those in the highest income brackets.
"Each individual makes their own calculations about how many permits they need" - I already do this. It's called budgeting. |
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pstarr
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Joined: Sep 27, 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: Capitalism is the answer to Global Warming |
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right. is that okay? can I make a single-word response to a stupid idea? is that acceptable with the code of conduct? yeah? okay. right. sure. whatever.
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green_achers
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Joined: Aug 14, 2005
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Location: Mississippi Delta
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:27 am Post subject: Re: Capitalism is the answer to Global Warming |
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| I'm not sure they know what they're talking about when they use the word "capitalism." It sounds to me like they're talking about using the government to create an artificial market. Capitalism is when moneyed interests (capital) create an artificial market. Neither has much to do with free markets, BTW, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, either. |
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NeoPeasant
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Joined: Oct 12, 2004
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Location: In the suburban sea of strangers
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Capitalism is the answer to Global Warming |
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How about issuing fully negotiable credits equally to everyone and let them either use them or sell them at whatever price the market will bear. You could set up exchanges. That way the rich will pay the poor for the priviledge of generating excess co2 and would alleviate some of the extreme inequities of income.
Not to mention it would make living a low-footprint lifestyle not only the right thing to do, but profitable as well. When they start rationing gas, I hope to supplement my income by selling my unneeded ration to my addicted neighbors.
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Concerned
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Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 1501
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Capitalism is the answer to Global Warming |
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| NeoPeasant wrote: | How about issuing fully negotiable credits equally to everyone and let them either use them or sell them at whatever price the market will bear. You could set up exchanges. That way the rich will pay the poor for the priviledge of generating excess co2 and would alleviate some of the extreme inequities of income.
Not to mention it would make living a low-footprint lifestyle not only the right thing to do, but profitable as well. When they start rationing gas, I hope to supplement my income by selling my unneeded ration to my addicted neighbors. |
My personal view is that this scheme would see the middle class worse off.
The current system of raising fuel prices at least gives access to all participants. If you scrape up enough dollars you, your family or neighbours could organise a trip in some sort of vehicle.
The total volume of permits is a monopoly to use a certain amount of energy in the economy. As energy becomes more scarce who is best able to purchase these permits?
If the monopoly permits come as well as facing higher prices people will have to pay an additional premium to the holders of permits to buy gasoline.
Think of it this way. Say you or I and a group of "investors" decided to start buying these permits (monopoly on gas) as our share of permits increases if we got to 80-90%. Not only would you have to pay the price of gas you would have to pay a premium so that our "investment" would make a profit.
This permit system is one of the more foolish ideas I've seen on how to reduce overall energy consumption.
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gg3
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Joined: May 24, 2004
Posts: 3428
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:24 am Post subject: Re: Capitalism is the answer to Global Warming |
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Strictly speaking, capitalism is a type of enterprise development wherein financial capital is equity, has ownership and control, and can be bought & sold on public markets.
What we're talking about here is a market system, which is a milieu in which capitalist enterprises operate, but is not equivalent to them.
The great advantage of market systems is that they enable economic decisionmaking via distributed intelligence. Whereas centrally controlled production & distribution tends to suffer from combinatorial overload, i.e. the complexity of an economy far exceeds the ability of a central government to manage in detail. Both market-based and planned economies suffer from short time horizons, but the only system that doesn't is something like an enlightened monarchy (which we will shortly see in the UK, when HRH the Prince of Wales becomes the next King of England).
As for the middle class getting screwed: please spell out how you expect that to happen. |
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Doly
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Joined: Dec 03, 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Capitalism is the answer to Global Warming |
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| gg3 wrote: | | Both market-based and planned economies suffer from short time horizons, but the only system that doesn't is something like an enlightened monarchy (which we will shortly see in the UK, when HRH the Prince of Wales becomes the next King of England). |
I don't think Prince Charles is going to be anything like an enlightened monarchy. He has some good ideas, some terrible ones, and practically no power. Besides, looking at the longevity of the Queen Mum, I don't think there's good reason to think he will be king shortly.
There are other options that operate with long term horizons. One would be a democracy with frequent elections (every year or every two years) and indefinite possibilities for reelection. It would make presidents think the horizon isn't the end of the term, but the end of their life if they do things right. Another is anarchy, understood as the different government departments operating independently as different organizations, with the heads of these organizations being positions one could occupy for a lifetime if they are doing things right. Both options would reduce the risk of getting a bad leader. |
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Wildwell
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Joined: Feb 03, 2005
Posts: 2080
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Capitalism is the answer to Global Warming |
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| gg3 wrote: |
The great advantage of market systems is that they enable economic decisionmaking via distributed intelligence. Whereas centrally controlled production & distribution tends to suffer from combinatorial overload, i.e. the complexity of an economy far exceeds the ability of a central government to manage in detail. Both market-based and planned economies suffer from short time horizons, but the only system that doesn't is something like an enlightened monarchy (which we will shortly see in the UK, when HRH the Prince of Wales becomes the next King of England).
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Nice summary GG3. Despite all the fluster, I still think it's the best system we have albiet with some government control aka the mixed economy. |
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Concerned
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 1501
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| Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:49 am Post subject: Re: Capitalism is the answer to Global Warming |
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| gg3 wrote: | Strictly speaking, capitalism is a type of enterprise development wherein financial capital is equity, has ownership and control, and can be bought & sold on public markets.
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Nice summary. I've seen and read tomes of opinion on the subject of capitalism. I guess your single sentence is the perfect encapsulation of capitalism. Cleverly done.
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What we're talking about here is a market system, which is a milieu in which capitalist enterprises operate, but is not equivalent to them.
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I thought one foundation of a market system was supply and demand. I see the error of my ways a coupon system for resources and goods administered by central authority is a market system but not equivalent to it.
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As for the middle class getting screwed: please spell out how you expect that to happen. |
Consider 80-90% of the wealth is concentrated in 10-15% of the population.
The middle class would be worse off as they have less access to money (capital) and would be unable to compete for monopoly rights (permits) to use resources.
Just let regular market supply and demand do what it does best and regulate resource consumption, rather than introduce artificial consumption points that would favor those with capital.
The whole idea is moot for an entirely different reason. Can anyone suggest why? (Fairly simple to deduce if you read the original article) 
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