Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Ludi wrote:
What gauge shotgun would you recommend for a lightly-built man with a bad arm?
Game will be squirrels and small deer, in general.
Others may be able to be more specific but I would think a 20 gauge. I would talk to a local gunsmith, gun shop, about a model that would have the least amount of kick. Lots of variety of ammunition available (slugs for dear to small game loads for rabbits/squirrels). Ammunition is relatively cheap as I recall and universal. _________________ "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens" -Friedrich von Schiller
Joined: Sep 30, 2005 Posts: 450 Location: Baltimore County, Md
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
there is only one gauge of shotgun. the 12 gauge. the ammo is universal. there is 12 gauge ammo nearly everywhere. you'll always be abloe to get it. even if tshtf.
need a light kicking gun, shoot handicap trap loads. needs to whomp some geese ? 3.5 in magnum.
Joined: Jan 29, 2005 Posts: 362 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
12 gauge. Try borrowing a 12g or 20g and bringing down a small deer, and you'd find that the 12g would do much better in terms of stopping power and range _________________ regards,
Rostov
"Some {} are more equal than others"
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Ludi wrote:
What gauge shotgun would you recommend for a lightly-built man with a bad arm?
Game will be squirrels and small deer, in general.
Squirrel and small deer?
.22LR for squirrel and .223 or .243 for deer. Either the .223 or .243 will make quick work of deer better then a shotgun would IMO.
I've never been a fan of taking deer with shotguns. You could even use the .22LR for deer, that little trick has been done for decades. Put one in the head and they'll go down right quick. _________________ "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."
Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Specop_007 wrote:
.223 or .243 for deer.
One of the craziest vital shots I have ever seen was my brother shooting a mule deer with a .223 full-metal jacket. I would not advise anyone to shoot game with a full-metal jacket unless you absolutely have to for survival purposes.
He shot the deer in the correct spot (behind the shoulder) but obviously instead of the bullet mushrooming since it was FMJ or exiting the other side which we anticipated....it actually bounced around in the rib cage. We found 2 seperate holes in the heart and 4 lung punctures. It was pretty amazing and extremely lucky.
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 620 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
ALBY wrote:
there is only one gauge of shotgun. the 12 gauge. the ammo is universal. there is 12 gauge ammo nearly everywhere. you'll always be abloe to get it. even if tshtf.
need a light kicking gun, shoot handicap trap loads. needs to whomp some geese ? 3.5 in magnum.
20 gauge is for small women and kids.
While I agree on the first part that the 12ga is a near universal shell, I disagree on the 2nd. That is an unreasonable and unfair determination for 20ga.
I would consider a .410 singleshot shotgun. You can also use .45 long for deer and the .410 does not grind small game up as finely as the 12ga.
On the other hand, a 22 hornet is a pretty nice altrnative for deer and small game of any kind (if it's not on the wing). _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 620 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Ludi wrote:
Our main concern about rifles is we have close neighbors and their livestock.
Then go for the .22LR as mentioned abpve. It's the most universal survival hunting gun on earth and the shells are very inexpensive. I prefer a Ruger 10/22 but I know there are others who go for the match grade rifles. That of course puts me squarely into the "I can own 5 of mine for 1 of yours" camp.
It's also a lot quieter, but it does require you to be a decent shot. _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
jlw61 wrote:
Then go for the .22LR as mentioned abpve. It's the most universal survival hunting gun on earth and the shells are very inexpensive.
jlw61 have you ever taken a deer with a .22LR? If so, how many have you injured while trying to take one with a .22LR?
Unless you are fairly close (less than 50 yards) and an excellent shot it can be a very difficult shot especially if you are hunting bucks due to the fact that the antlers can deflect the bullet if you are shooting while the deer is facing you.
I agree you can kill a deer with a .22LR with a perfectly placed shot but I would never advise anyone to shot deer with that small of a caliber especially someone who doesn't hunt on a regular basis.
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Remember most if not all states have a minimum caliber for hunting big-game. They do this because a larger caliber obviously has more knock-down power and is more likely to kill the animal rather than wound it.
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
joeltrout, milspec .223 (5.56x45), even though FMJ, actually fragments on impact within a reasonable distance (100-200 yards). The wound channel can be quite devastating, even more so than a soft point bullet. Check out the "Ammo Oracle" for lots of info if you're interested.
Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
bobaloo wrote:
joeltrout, milspec .223 (5.56x45), even though FMJ, actually fragments on impact within a reasonable distance (100-200 yards). The wound channel can be quite devastating, even more so than a soft point bullet. Check out the "Ammo Oracle" for lots of info if you're interested.
Thanks, I am not familiar with the Ammo Oracle so I will google it.
We located the bullet inside the cavity and it had not fragmented at all. Though this might be an unusual circumstance because we do not use FMJ for hunting so I don't know what usually happens to the bullet inside a body cavity. My brother was using military ammo that my grandfather had bought somewhere.
We typically only use soft-point bullets or occasionally hollow-point bullets for hunting.
Joined: Sep 02, 2004 Posts: 577 Location: Not tellin' anymore
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Ludi wrote:
What gauge shotgun would you recommend for a lightly-built man with a bad arm?
Game will be squirrels and small deer, in general.
Ludi,
You didn't mention if he shoots. A good shot won't hafta worry about missin' as often as some - percentages.
First check the state law on gauges for deer hunting. Some only go as low as 20 ga.
Second take in consideration the shooter. Can they hit a target and how far out? How far is anticipated? Shotguns typically are close range guns.
Third is purpose. Hunting only, defense or combo? This is a very big determiner.
Now as to suggestions:
Most gun makers have "Youth" models. Smaller basic model, same ammo loads. 'Nuff said there.
Most gun makers have "Combo Guns" - a shogun/rifle with a breech lock load (breaks open like old timey shotguns). .410 to 12 ga, .22 to .45 black powder. Some the barrels are swapped, some are over/under (M6 USAF Survival Rifle/Springfield M6 Scout)
Light weight Gauges/calibers:
.22 - Yes a .22 lr will kill a deer. Gotta be a "great shot" and relativelly close to target. Its a light load, the wind will move it. A .22 magnum is better, but still gotta be a "great shot" and close. Otherwise you gotta be a great runner/tracker or the meat is lost and the coyotes feast.
.410/67 ga. - Yes a .410 slug will kill a deer. Gotta have rifled barrel, a decent round (1/4oz, 3" slug) and still be a pretty good shot. With other rounds available, it covers small game and maybe deer.
.20 - Typically the only legally used shotgun for deer and then only slugs - again requiring a rifled barrel and a decent round and again still be a pretty good shot.
Still goes back to Practice, Practice, Practice. A spreading ammo shotgun doesn't make up for abilityto hunt or shoot - two very different things.
Alternatives:
Buddy up with a hunter and make mutually beneficial arrangements.
Get an air rifle for small game or learn about live traps/snares.
Do what someone else suggested here and raise rabbits. THEN trade with the hunter - saves them bullets and the skins have no holes.
As for the defense, this thread is eat up with suggestions. For inside the house defense, pump shogun in .410/20 ga. For Zombie hordes, call in the Marines or say your prayers. Without heavy weapons, arty or air support, your best bet is to "run away".
"He who lives to run away, lives to fight another day!"
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Ludi;
Have you considered a gas/recoil operated 12ga? These tend to be light and all you have to do is hold on and pull the trigger. Automatics, as they are also called, tend to have less recoil as well.
I have 2 Stoegers and they are great guns for the money. The ONLY time they've ever jammed was on a COLD Argentine morning after they were caked full of residue from very cheap Argentine powder. With better powder like we find in shells here in the states they'll just shoot and shoot.
If you want the most reliable auto 12ga get a Benelli.
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