[Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)

bobaloo · Heavy Crude Joined: Oct 14, 2004 Posts: 459

I've started lot of women shooting (no, not at me) and I've found that a lot of preconceptions are wrong. IMHO the single most important factor in a handgun is whether or not it fits your hand.

If you're an average sized woman your hands are going to be smaller than the average male hand. Pick up the handgun, put the rear of the grip in the "vee" of your thumb and forefinger and lay your finger alongside the trigger. See where it falls. If it doesn't extend so that the first joint of your finger is alongside the trigger or more then the gun is probably going to be too large for you and you're going to end up shifting it sideways in your hand to compensate. As a result, you'll feel a lot more recoil, you won't be as accurate and your hand will start to hurt.

Here's the three guns that I've seen a lot of women chose.

First are the S&W Ladysmith or the Taurus equivalent. That's a small .38 Special that's easy to carry, very simple and foolproof. The caliber leaves a bit to be desired, but good high quality self defense loads will do a lot to improve it.

Next up in size are the Kahr PM9 and CW9. These are subcompact 9mm semiautos that weigh less than a pound and easily slip into a pocket (but get a pocket holster if you go that route). Extremely easy and comfortable to carry, they hold 8 rounds of 9mm, which in modern loadings is significantly more powerful than the .38. They're double action only, but the trigger is very smooth and quite light, very easy to shoot.

Finally, believe it or not, for people with small hands one of the best guns is a good old 1911. Put a short trigger in it and the thin, single-stack grips will fit someone 5' tall with average hands for their size. My daughter carries a Kimber ProCarry which has a 4" barrel (versus the 5" of the full-size) and is made with an alloy frame, making it much lighter to carry than the full-size models. Smith makes an alloy version of the 4" model also that's real nice. The difference between the 9mm and the .45 in recoil is minimal. The 9mm has a sharp snappy recoil, the .45 has a slower "push" type of recoil, it's never been a factor for anyone that's tried it with me.

Don't forget about used guns, you can get some good deals, but if you're not pretty experienced it's best to buy one where there's a good return policy if it turns out to have any problems. Most people hardly shoot their guns, which means they're good for generations of use without problems. One nice thing about buying guns is they hold their value well, if you do choose a good used gun you can usually get virtually all your cost back out of it if you want to sell it.

The two most important things after that are practice and more practice. Make sure the gun is unloaded and carry it around the house all the time, take it out and work the action, strip it down and put it back together, get to know it in the dark. Know how it works and what makes it not work. Take it out and shoot it, a lot. That's one advantage of the 9mm, practice ammo is a lot cheaper than .45 ammo, so you're more likely to practice. When I first started shooting handguns I shot twice a week, 200-300 rounds per session. After 6 months of that I felt like I was over the beginner's hurdles. A lot of people are faster learners than me, but it's a manual skill and it takes a lot of practice, it's not like TV. Get good instruction if you can, check for local ranges, do that at least once so someone who knows what they're doing can watch you and correct any errors before they get too ingrained to change. Preferably, go out regularly with someone who has a clue, one on one instruction is the best.

Finally, don't forget to have fun. Shooting can be a lot of fun. Take action targets if possible, steel or cans or plastic milk jugs, it's a lot more fun to shoot stuff that reacts when you shoot it, but shoot at paper also because it really tells you what you're doing.

ORCA

Good run down, Bobaloo.

I have a Kahr 40CW and love it. Its what I carry if I decide not to carry the Kel-Tec P3AT.
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deMolay · Intermediate Crude Joined: Sep 04, 2005 Posts: 532

And what would you folk use for long range shots. The hand gun/shotguns are good for last stands etc or a surprise attack. But what about long range defense? Say 500 plus yards.

duke

500 yards??? Have you ever walked out 500 yards and put up a full size face picture of someone and then gone back to ground zero and tried to determine if looking at that photo... that image was friend or foe? Most people could not even see ot find said photo with bino's or whatever.

At that range you might see a vehicle...but who is driving it? You just can't go shooting everything that moves unless you are certain it is a threat to you.

We have long range vision at our ranch and i will tell you what...at 500 and more yards I can not ID who is who. We have some good optics here, but heat wave distortion, dust and other things blur the finere details.

If we had to make a shot out there we do have a bull barrel .308 with a 12X scope and several places from which to sit down and take the shot. It sure can be done from here, but unless I was 100% positive it was a true threat... I would wait to see it closer up. Right now we just go out that far for varmits....

Under 500 yards we have high volume .223 soft nose for that...fast, flat, and many of them if needed. Sure .223 is not always an instant kill... but how about you go out 300 yards and let me shoot you. Then I will put the rifle down and you can go ahead and try to attack me...... We don't live in Hollywood and this ain't the movies. You get shot my friend and it is all over as far as you keeping going. If you do crawl or hobble up closer that shotgun/pistol should put you out of your misery.....

Now for those real bad mutant biker zombies we all can spot for miles away... I am planning to acquire a .50 bolt action long barrel nasty cannon type lookin gun. Down side is each round is 4-8 bucks. Gun is about 2,800.00... I have been around a few and they are not portable by hand, but sure can reach out and touch somebody....long distance. Of course the noise they make is sure to advise the world for several miles you are still alive and out there. Not something that is high up and page one of our survival desires.... The above are just my opinions and are subject to change over time...

Specop_007 · Expert Joined: Aug 12, 2004 Posts: 6073

500 yards? Most rifles with even half decent ballistics can handle that. 5.56, .223, .243, 30-06, 25-06, .308 and definitely anything in the 6/6.5mm range.

500 yards is a long shot for a shooter, but fairly doable with most rifles. Its all about knowing the ballistics of the rifle and ammunition your using.
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"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."

Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble

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joelcolorado · Intermediate Crude Joined: May 25, 2008 Posts: 586

There is not one in a thousand ppl can hit anything at 500 yards.
The drop on the bullet is YARDS in most bullets and if the target is moving, well.
Longest shot I made was standing deer 667 measured yards and the bullet drop was 4.3 feet.

AgentR

eXpat · Intermediate Crude Joined: Jun 08, 2006 Posts: 830

For long range shots in a TSHTF situation get a well built rifle in .308 with plenty of spare parts around.
I would suggest (my personal opinion):
- CZ550 Varmint
- Remington 700

If you have a generous budget, CZ 750 SNIPER comes to my mind
http://www.danwessonfirearms.com/product_detail.php?id=75 (I wish i could get one)
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ORCA

500 yds.? I'd have to call in an air strike!

Seriously, a friend and I spent a day in the highlands of Virginia shooting at (I didn't say "shooting") groundhogs.

I carried my trusty .243Win using 90gr. reloads. At anything over 300yds I couldn't believe how much my bullet dropped! Like someone said, it seemed like YARDS. I say firsthand that my skills with a featherweight rifle weren't up to the task for groundhogs, but barns best beware. We simply weren't accustomed to ranges out in the open like the highlands offer. We were mountain boys used to less than 200yds, if that. At 200 or under, though, we could light 'em up!
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Muckingfess

500 yds?

with the proper rifle and cartridge, no problem

It gets a lot tougher out past 1000 yds, but yes, it can be done.
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Specop_007 · Expert Joined: Aug 12, 2004 Posts: 6073

Its always interesting to see the different perspective for the same distance.

Backside of the prairie dog town I shoot at it a touch over 600 yards. We're talking about shooting something the size of a small cat at 600+.

Nothing like livin in Kansas, God laid it with a level!
_________________
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."

Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble

كا&#

deMolay · Intermediate Crude Joined: Sep 04, 2005 Posts: 532

I would say it is a learned skill. I like the .300 H&H myself. Check out these old boys. http://www.longrangerifles.co.uk/

Hogan · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Oct 25, 2004 Posts: 1298

Private gun owners feeling pinch of ammunition price increase

skyemoor

AgentR

Why show a graph like that without showing a best (say, 50 BMG), a good middle-ground (300 WinMag?), and the slow rounds that are listed.

In addition, more important than inches of drop, is angle of drop, as in what you would adjust on the scope; at least I hope no one is trying to "hold over" for 45 inches!

I do wonder a bit why one would WANT to expend a highly valuable, long distance round, in an EOTWAWKI environment at 500 yds, instead of waiting for a much more reliable shot at 300 yds. If the world's come to an end, only way I'm going to launch one of my 375 H&H's out to such a distance is off a bench, and only if there's a 100+pounds of meat on the receiving end!

edit: snipped over reaching adjectives...
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