For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
It is and it isn't. In terms of energy, it's a winner, hands down. The only downside is the high initial costs, but once things get rolling the inputs are only sunlight, the used up algae, and a few nutrients. Due to it's impressive rate of growth, and high oil per volume, select strains of algae cannot be beat for plant oil. Energetically speaking, it's frieken awesome. On the other hand, there is currently no rational limit on it's supply, no dependence that would drive prices up, and it has a large initial investment. It's expensive for the business, but cheap for the consumer, a business' worst nightmare. Of course they're going to ignore it and continue selling oil, especially as demand continues to outstrip supply. One must remember that economics has very little to do with energy production. In energy economics, the best product is the one that generates the most profit, not the one that's most efficient or beneficial. Our society serves the minority, not the majority.
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish firm claims it can make oil from plankton
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Up to now I had failed to find any credible argument in THIS THREAD why algi to oil project would not work.
Concerning large reservoirs:
Build few dosen of medium sized dams (worldwide) and you are ok.
Single large dam (3 gorges alike) would also do!
Most of redundant drilling platforms could easily be 'recycled' into necessary pumping machinery etc.
Entire process would be carbon neutral (based on atmospheric CO2), therefore GW concerns are also irrelevant.
I will wait few years to see whats going on and buy new SUV if technology looks promissing.
Such a doom for doomers...
You obviously haven't been reading the work Mike Briggs from the UNH and at www.biodieselnow.com has been doing concerning algae to oil.
Large open pools or reservoirs don't work. They realize this now with algae and it will be the same with plankton.
You have to build closed ponds that will not be contaminated with outside influences. Read his work at biodieselnow.com and you'll learn more.
I think plankton and algae are going to be huge parts of our future. It is just that it will take time.
Energyunlimited,
You're in a dream world buddy thinking that anything can quickly replace oil in a quick time period.
Have you even read the DOE study by Robert Hirsch??
Joined: Mar 10, 2005 Posts: 283 Location: Airstrip 1
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish firm claims it can make oil from plankton
slick wrote:
I went to the link you provided but after 10 mins couldn't find out why open pools won't work. Care to explain?
evaporation due to intense sunlight will quickly result in highly salinated plankton pools which will kill your plankton.
the only way round that is to completely flush out your 52,000 square kilometers of plankton pools with new supplies of seawater until evaporation again starts to kill your plankton.
That's quite a lot of water and quite a lot of pumps and energy needed to move it around.
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
I'd be awfully surprised if that variable has already been taken into account. The scientists involved have been tinkering with this concept for years.
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
I think the 52,000 square kilometers of pools was only use to show what would be needed, Im sure we would'nt have to build just one large pool, but instead maybe many hundreds or thousands around the world.
Joined: Jun 26, 2004 Posts: 1189 Location: Madison,Wisconsin
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
I merged the threads due to the titles and the fact I couldn't eliminate the poll if I wanted to merge the threads. Yes the poll is a bit biased, but, that is the real question we are looking at aren't we?
My question was not an argument. It was a question. I have no idea if this will work or not, I can't even comment on the site as I can't read spanish. If you might define the difference between the two kind's of plankton, I'm curious as to what it is.
Trust me, if I thought I knew for sure as to weither something was bull or not, I would not hesitate to lay the smack. As I have no information on this and have never heard of it before, would be pretty presumptous to just dismiss it. _________________ Azreal60
Joined: Mar 10, 2005 Posts: 283 Location: Airstrip 1
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
slick wrote:
I'd be awfully surprised if that variable has already been taken into account. The scientists involved have been tinkering with this concept for years.
Why not just say you have no answer to this point.
you post junk articles with no link to back them up and you're then unable to answer even the most basic objection to your fantastic schemes, while demanding answers from 'doomers'.
Joined: Mar 10, 2005 Posts: 283 Location: Airstrip 1
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
What2DO wrote:
I think the 52,000 square kilometers of pools was only use to show what would be needed, Im sure we would'nt have to build just one large pool, but instead maybe many hundreds or thousands around the world.
Doesn't matter whether you have all the pools in the same place or dispersed around the world. Evaporation is still the killer unsolveable problem for this plankton fantasy scheme.
In fact things would probably be more efficient if all your plankton pools were in the same place.
Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
Chicken_Little wrote:
Doesn't matter whether you have all the pools in the same place or dispersed around the world. Evaporation is still the killer unsolveable problem for this plankton fantasy scheme.
What if the pools were under glass / plastic roofs? The evaporated water would collect on the glass and drip back down.
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:06 am Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
slick wrote:
What if the pools were under glass / plastic roofs? The evaporated water would collect on the glass and drip back down.
okay so lets put a greenhouse around those 52,000 square kilometers to keep those phytoplanktons happy
Let's say that the greenhouse costs about the same as residential construction $100/sq. ft. Okay let's be generous. Let's say $50/ft.
So each square kilometer of plankton farm costs $450 million for the greenhouse. ($50/sq.ft. * 9 sq.ft/sq. meter * 1 million sq. meters/sq. kilometer)
So the cost for the infrastruture is $23 trillion. That is before the recurring costs to actually grow the stuff: the fertilizer, electricity for water pumps and filters, air-conditioning, harvesting and straining, centrifuge and clarification, storage, distribution.
What would the upkeep be on 52,000 sq. kilos of greenhouse? hum? _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:36 am Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
OK, lets deal with evaporation problem:
<sarcastic mode>
Why not to turn Victoria lake in Central Africa into large plankton pool?
Just throw million tons of fertilizer in, bulid proper dam here and there...
<end of sarcastic mode>
Now for serious:
Once people will get really desperate for oil as it runs out, governments may authorize almost anything.
It may not be too difficult to currupt some poor african country to do something as idea above.
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
Sure slick, a polytunnel would be great for your pot plants but in the real world something more substantial is necessary. It would need to withstand the occasional thunder and hailstorm. Some little backyard grownroom is not going to cut it. Let's say $10/sq. ft. for a good reinforced polytunnel okay.
Then you have to include the cost of the plankton PONDS. Residential concrete pools go for around $20 sq. ft. But they are deep. So let'S just say $10/sq. ft. for the pond
But PUMPS will be necessary. Cost for 1-HP pump and filter system for a residential pool is (Hayward Extended Cycle D.E. Pool Filter Systems - for in ground pools) is $1,000. That covers a deep 1,250 sq.ft. backyard pool. Let's reduce that startup cost to $250 for a shallow plankton pool. There is another $5/sq. ft.
Just for arguments sake, let's say AIR CONDITIONING is around the same as pumping. That adds another $5/sq. ft.
And a guess of $5/sq. ft. for pipes and ducts etc.
So the cost for a cheap polytunnel greenhouse to grow our nation's liquid energy would only be $35/sq. ft. or $16 trillion in startup costs.
So we would need to divert the entire Gross National Product of the United States for almost two years to this cockomammy exercise even before we produced a lick of pond scum. I don't think so _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
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