For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:49 am Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
I think, that Heineken is trying to say, that once SUPPLIES to supermarkets had stopped or started to suffer delays, than shelves would quickly go empty.
American citizenery not used to this would soon start panicking, stocking up etc with all consequences.
That's perfectly realistic. But that's a far cry from starvation, you know.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6141 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:42 am Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
Doly wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
I think, that Heineken is trying to say, that once SUPPLIES to supermarkets had stopped or started to suffer delays, than shelves would quickly go empty.
American citizenery not used to this would soon start panicking, stocking up etc with all consequences.
That's perfectly realistic. But that's a far cry from starvation, you know.
And you speak from personal experience in such a situation, Doly?
So where would the typical American get his or her food if the shelves at Safeway went bare, which, as we know from snowstorms etc. can occur overnight? And then stayed bare instead of magically filling up again. Even if the government distributed food, it would last only for a while and be unevenly distributed.
And just think what would happen to the price of food in such a scenario. $200 bread if you can get it at all. Riots. Chaos. And, yes, starvation, especially among the young, the sick, the weak, the elderly.
It's going to happen; a matter of when, not if. When gas hits some magical number, maybe $6/gal, and the truckers are losing money on each trip. Or when a ruinous, year-long drought strikes the Midwest. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6141 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:48 am Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
What2DO wrote:
Heineken wrote:
Demoth wrote:
I see a lower standard of living in our future, but not a collapse of the United States or mass starvation here.
We see pretty much what we want to see. Many people just can't cope with the idea that they might die prematurely, so they unconsciously oppose the doomer point of view.
The fact is that the US is especially vulnerable to mass starvation, despite its now-mythical food glut. The population is totally dependent on the shelves at Safeway and Food Lion remaining full at all times. Very few people in America have any connection with the land, and most could not grow so much as a tomato.
We are one major oil crisis away from mass starvation.
Your kidding right? there is 50% if not even more food then is needed in any one super market in the USA at any given time. There is so much food that isnt even needed in the stores that if it wasnt there tomorrow, there would still be more then enough food for people to buy and live off of, stop trying to scare people.
I have lived in a third world country and trust me when I say this the average american lives on way to much food then is needed. I have seen what starving really is and even the poor in america have it great compared to real poverty.
It's amazing to me how many people's perceptions of the food chain extend no further than the supermarkets. The shelves are full; no prob, rog; don't worry, be happy!!
You'd better be scared.
Maybe we should be talking about making food from algae or plankton or whatever, not fueling our mountainous SUVs with it. Soylent Green, anyone? _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:00 am Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
It's amazing to me how many people's perceptions of the food chain extend no further than the supermarkets. The shelves are full; no prob, rog; don't worry, be happy!!
You'd better be scared.
Maybe we should be talking about making food from algae or plankton or whatever, not fueling our mountainous SUVs with it. Soylent Green, anyone?[/quote]
----------------------------------------------------------
What your talking about is impossible. The only way the US would no longer be able to produce and transport food for distribution, barring a nuclear war or asteroid impact, is if crude oil supplies suddenly dried up over the period of a few months. This will not happen.
First, we only get 25% of oil from all Arab states, the only source of a potential immediate loss. Even if the situation became so bad, so quickly that even Canada and Mexico decided to hoard rather then sell, we still produce 43% of our current useage domestically which could be ramped up to maybe 50% overnight.
Current 43% levels of current oil useage is plenty to sustain food production, military needs and all vital emergency needs indefinately.
There will be no immediate loss of supply, even the most doomer of peak oil predictions show a more gradual bell curve decline in supplies over years. Even with the increased drain on our supplies, accelerating the rate of peak oil onset domestically in this senario, we are still talking years to transition to alternatives, albiet, very painfully for the average American.
Soylent Green was a nice but silly little Sci-Fi 70's thriller, but it was a typical 70's doomer idea that like so many others proved to be false. Remember beef rationing, no fresh water, economic collapse, $100/ounce steel prices and all the other 100% for sure predictions that were supposed to already have come to pass?
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
Heineken wrote:
What2DO wrote:
Heineken wrote:
Demoth wrote:
I see a lower standard of living in our future, but not a collapse of the United States or mass starvation here.
We see pretty much what we want to see. Many people just can't cope with the idea that they might die prematurely, so they unconsciously oppose the doomer point of view.
The fact is that the US is especially vulnerable to mass starvation, despite its now-mythical food glut. The population is totally dependent on the shelves at Safeway and Food Lion remaining full at all times. Very few people in America have any connection with the land, and most could not grow so much as a tomato.
We are one major oil crisis away from mass starvation.
Your kidding right? there is 50% if not even more food then is needed in any one super market in the USA at any given time. There is so much food that isnt even needed in the stores that if it wasnt there tomorrow, there would still be more then enough food for people to buy and live off of, stop trying to scare people.
I have lived in a third world country and trust me when I say this the average american lives on way to much food then is needed. I have seen what starving really is and even the poor in america have it great compared to real poverty.
It's amazing to me how many people's perceptions of the food chain extend no further than the supermarkets. The shelves are full; no prob, rog; don't worry, be happy!!
You'd better be scared.
Maybe we should be talking about making food from algae or plankton or whatever, not fueling our mountainous SUVs with it. Soylent Green, anyone?
Are you affaid of the dark to? I live in earth quake country and we have a 6 month supple of water and food, if we need to use because everything stops over night then were ready, but its not going to happen and if something like that ever does happen it wont be because of oil prices or oil supple. The price of oil will stay high for a few year at most then come down again maybe in the 20 to 40 dollar range when new supples come online and there is still more then enough oil for the next fifty year but way before that we will be driving electric cars , trucks and even 18 wheelers.
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
What2DO wrote:
Are you affaid of the dark to? I live in earth quake country and we have a 6 month supple of water and food, if we need to use because everything stops over night then were ready, but its not going to happen and if something like that ever does happen it wont be because of oil prices or oil supple. The price of oil will stay high for a few year at most then come down again maybe in the 20 to 40 dollar range when new supples come online and there is still more then enough oil for the next fifty year but way before that we will be driving electric cars , trucks and even 18 wheelers.
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
Ayame wrote:
What2DO wrote:
Are you affaid of the dark to? I live in earth quake country and we have a 6 month supple of water and food, if we need to use because everything stops over night then were ready, but its not going to happen and if something like that ever does happen it wont be because of oil prices or oil supple. The price of oil will stay high for a few year at most then come down again maybe in the 20 to 40 dollar range when new supples come online and there is still more then enough oil for the next fifty year but way before that we will be driving electric cars , trucks and even 18 wheelers.
What no flying cars?
Oh ya of course those will be out before anything else , because you hear some much about them, and the millions if not hundreds of millions going into that technology compared to hybrids cars and solar power. Im suprprized knowone else brought it up before you, I think your the winner.
Joined: Oct 12, 2004 Posts: 1647 Location: Davis, California
Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:34 am Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
lorenzo wrote:
Surfing the net, I stumbled... ... on this:
Quote:
Biofuels from algae - new breakthrough claimed
[...]
But the investments in this technology have been slow, and large-scale production is not likely in the near future.
This is because of the countless problems and barriers faced by algae systems, as they were highlighted by the research:
* if closed photobioreactors [ill. 1] are used, costs are extremely high (compare it to growing rapeseed or corn in greenhouses - it does not make commercial sense)
* if open pond systems are used [ill. 3] the costs drop dramatically but then the algae cultures become unstable with high drops in biomass productivity, yielding even less usable biomass than an average sugar cane or palm oil plantation
* given the fact that algae need water as a medium, both water requirements and the costs to process the wet algae are high
* genetically modified algae might be more stable, but then the environmental risks are extremely high (pollution and destruction of the biodiversity in water bodies and rivers)
[...]
There is not much in the press dossier that actually indicates whether open pond systems are used. If photobioreactors are the main infrastructural element of the system, then costs are likely to be prohibitive.
We'll have to wait and see what comes from this new algae venture. It might be one of the many that doesn't take off. The company has no website yet.
Does Omar know how much the costs of a photobioreactor infrastructure are?
Unfortunately, I don't have exact numbers off the top of my head, but traditionally microalgae has been used in growing on fish farms (pure culture concerns aren't needed here and it's part of an ecosystem (ie algae --> plankton --> fish)) and for producing health food products. Health food is extremely expensive. A lb of lipids or nutrients can cost up to $20.
Effective microalgal cultivation is still a problem for fuel. It's decent for making these health foods and fish farms, but keeping costs down for making fuels is just difficult.
I haven't done much research regarding this new technology, but at it's face, it probably looks something like TDP or a biomass to liquids capability.
For cultivation, area is far more important than volume for most of these photosynthetic microorganisms. Past a couple feet, the light intensity just doesn't exist for efficient. Most outdoor cultivation of microalgae occurs at a water depth of 4-10 cm. Anything more and the light just can't penetrate the water layers.
Numbers get bandied around for replacing our petroleum usage, but we have to remember that exactly 0% comes from these exotic sources. They are promising and have great potential for growth, but traditional fossil fuels are going to dominate our fuel platter for a long long time _________________ Joseph Stalin "It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. "
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6141 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
Hey, I gotta idea! Why not mix algae and gasoline and get algogas? The only thing that comes out of the exhaust is small green moist turds. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
Heineken wrote:
Hey, I gotta idea! Why not mix algae and gasoline and get algogas? The only thing that comes out of the exhaust is small green moist turds.
then you can just pass those little green turds through the TDP plant and get more algogas. and methane to power the TDP plant.
ah forget it. let's go shopping. It could be our last time _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
Right.
As has already been pointed out there's a chance that
GW and warming oceans will reduce the plankton population,
perhaps catastrophically. There will be less nutriet
mixing, and many of these organisms require cool water.
These things represent the base of the oceans food chain,
as well as something like 70% of the photosynthetic biomass
on the planet.
Do you like having an atmosphere with oxygen in it? Cause
it took billions of years for photosynthetic organisms to
build up the oxygen rich atmoshphere we enjoy, and without
their continued input the oxygen levels in the atmosphere
will decline. Only a few percent decline would decimate
many mammals, including people. Only for a small fraction
of the earths history have oxygen levels been as high
as they currently are.
Look at it this way: the oxygen in the atmosphere is a
form of potential energy. It's what makes it possible to
burn hydrocarbons. It allowed animals such as ourselves
to evolve. Life itself is a burn, with DNA mediating the
burn. Once the spark goes out of you you're dead, and the
spark has been passed as an unbroken chain from the earliest
life to you... you are still breathing, I trust? (I'm not
certain about some of the posters here).
Actually nearly all oxygen consuming organisms rely on one
molecule (ATP) to drive all molecular processes, with
mitochondria converting oxygen and food (hydrocarbons) to
ATP. So our cells are still relics from a time before there
was much O2 in the air, and we rely on these tiny organisms
to create the energy we need indirectly using oxygen.
Man is the only animal that's figured out how to burn
things externally from our bodies. We've used this knowledge
as a powerful tool, but self-destructively and without
wisdom. Oxygen is literally our food, and oxygen breathing
animals are the orginal hydrocarbon burners. All oil is
just the concentrated remains of dead organisms, built up
over great spans of time.
Can you start to understand the folly of our present course,
the insanity? We are destroying our planet and our food
for little more than the sake of convenience.
OK, so I'm rambling here. Point is we're never going to see
a substantial amount of energy from plankton, and I'm
appalled at the caliber of some of the posters here.
If you think there's anything to this you're stone stupid,
and that's all there is to it. It's bullshit
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
Liamj wrote:
Eric, how does recapping the oxidative basis of life prove that
Quote:
we're never going to see a substantial amount of energy from plankton,
Hmmm. good question. I was trying to show that messing
with something as fundamental as the base of the Oceans
food chain may not be a good idea.
As far as getting useful amounts of oil from plankton -
res ipsa loquitur. The concept is so ludicrous, especially
considering the current global political situation, that
I can only conclude the OP is a troll or very ignorant.
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 921 Location: 145'2"E 37'46"S
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:19 am Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
If by 'Useful amounts' you mean 84mil/b/d, then okay, but i don't see anybody on this thread claiming that. Throwing around troll labels when you are vague about who and silent on why is pretty weak, and saying only "The thing speaks for itself" is plain embarrassing, even if you say it in latin.
You don't have to like algal oil, you don't even have to specify why you don't like it, but insulting those who think otherwise before even going through the niceties of discussion is low and probably contravenes to COC.
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: Re: All plankton fuel posts
Liamj wrote:
If by 'Useful amounts' you mean 84mil/b/d, then okay, but i don't see anybody on this thread claiming that. Throwing around troll labels when you are vague about who and silent on why is pretty weak, and saying only "The thing speaks for itself" is plain embarrassing, even if you say it in latin.
You don't have to like algal oil, you don't even have to specify why you don't like it, but insulting those who think otherwise before even going through the niceties of discussion is low and probably contravenes to COC.
You are rather to harsh on eric_b.
Didn't you realise, that he appears to know answer on ANY question, and he will provide it even before an actual question is asked?
Didn't you realise his genius by now?
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ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap 
