I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Nanosolar has developed proprietary technology that makes it possible to simply roll-print solar cells that require only 1/100th as thick an absorber as a silicon-wafer cell (yet deliver similar performance and durability). Watch the CNN video.
Our technology dramatically lowers the process cost and complexity involved in the production of thin-film solar cells and makes it possible to scale production very rapidly.
The result sets the standard for the technology and products that make it possible to put A Solar Panel on Every Building™.
A Solar Panel on Every Building™ = We could very well be saved!
{Extraneous advertisement deleted - TheTurtle} _________________ Love is patient, love is kind.
Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Last edited by AIM9X on Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: Apr 19, 2006 Posts: 199 Location: Australia
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: Re: The Future seems Bright - Google invest in NanoSolar!
If this thing really works, it would be a big help in the future. However, first I would like to see the ratio $/Watt. Also, remember that oil does not count for much of the worlds electricity, but for transportation and petrochemicals. So, we would not need oil to be burned at thermal powerplants, but we would still need it for the rest.
Anyway, I would love to have those films installed at my place, if they are cheap enough. But I still will not shout "WE ARE SAVED!", yet. _________________ Omnia mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:09 am Post subject: Re: The Future seems Bright - Google invest in NanoSolar!
AIM9X wrote:
A Solar Panel on Every Building™ = We could very well be saved!
you mean to say, the rich will be saved.
although they are working towards $1/watt, they did not mention how long it will take to build that 430MW plant, and then multiply this time by the number of plants like this we would need to "be saved"
Very quickly you'll see that short (long?) term shortages will jack up the prices so that you and I will not be shingling our house with these panels anytime soon.
The other nice little doomer note to add to it, is the "Google money". Google is the last holder of the Dot.Com bag of funny money, so when the stock market tanks (see the most recent housing bubble post ), that money is going to evaporate. _________________ Angry yet?
Joined: Apr 17, 2005 Posts: 2750 Location: Vancouver Island
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:09 am Post subject: Re: The Future seems Bright - Google invest in NanoSolar!
A solar Panel on every Building = The big screen tv still runs and shows us lets us watch the news while everything comes grinding to a halt because transport fails. _________________ shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
Joined: Apr 27, 2005 Posts: 245 Location: new york city wacko
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: Re: The Future seems Bright - Google invest in NanoSolar!
Eli wrote:
I would bet this is more of a pump and dump scheme then anything else.
I thought that too at first, but it looks like this company is privately owned and only taking capital from major corporate investors (ie. Google). If you go to the site it all looks fairly legit. Of course it's still somewhat experimental so we won't know for a few years how useful this stuff is.
Btw, if you want to see a 'real' pump n' dump solar power play, here it is:
IAUS _________________ "If you're always looking for the invisible hand to guide you, you will find that the invisible hand often gives you the invisible finger." - some guy on CNBC
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: Re: The Future seems Bright - Google invest in NanoSolar!
kabump bump (trailer) _________________ ___________________________
WHEN THE BLIND LEAD THE BLIND...GET OUT OF THE WAY!
Using evil to further good makes one evil
Doubt everything but the TRUTH
This posted information is not permissible to be used
by anyone who has ever met a lawyer
Last edited by grabby on Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: Re: The Future seems Bright - Google invest in NanoSolar!
The futue seems bright?
wow.
Because a Business profit making ciompany found a good way to make profit it means our energy problem is solved?
They will be money making the day we all run out of oil.
Because government subsidizes solar now we will not have peak oil?
Hey ethanol and solar both are good money makers that doesn't stop big companies from taking advantage and making a profit.
But the future is the same as it ever was, we arent going to be driving cars pretty soon, at the same time goodle will be making a big profit.
How does google making a profit help you when you cant drive any more?
I think the future is pretty solid, unchangeable and coming at you like a truck.
It won't matter if your happy or sad when you get hit by a truck you still get hit. _________________ ___________________________
WHEN THE BLIND LEAD THE BLIND...GET OUT OF THE WAY!
Using evil to further good makes one evil
Doubt everything but the TRUTH
This posted information is not permissible to be used
by anyone who has ever met a lawyer
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: Re: The Future seems Bright - Google invest in NanoSolar!
grabby wrote:
The futue seems bright?
wow.
Because a Business profit making ciompany found a good way to make profit it means our energy problem is solved?
They will be money making the day we all run out of oil.
Because government subsidizes solar now we will not have peak oil?
Hey ethanol and solar both are good money makers that doesn't stop big companies from taking advantage and making a profit.
But the future is the same as it ever was, we arent going to be driving cars pretty soon, at the same time goodle will be making a big profit.
How does google making a profit help you when you cant drive any more?
I think the future is pretty solid, unchangeable and coming at you like a truck.
It won't matter if your happy or sad when you get hit by a truck you still get hit.
Grabby, i am sorry you feel this way. It seems you cannot experience anything happy or postive in life with this kind of pessimistic attitude towards everything and everyone. _________________ Love is patient, love is kind.
Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:24 am Post subject: Re: The Future seems Bright - Google invest in NanoSolar!
Essentially, if NanoSolar succeeds, we will have solar panels the thinness of paint, and at a cheaper price than paint!
This will be extremely scalabe and very high EROEI! With such superthin, supercheap solar panels, we can 'paint' our entire house, our entire car, our entire Businesses, and highways, and schools and hospitals,etc.
This will be a multi-fold solution. We will have affordable electric cars, (transportation solved) affordable housing costs (electricity solved)
and all we really have to worry about is those niches that cannot be solved with solar.
But wait, with so much solar panels around, global warming will actually start to go in REVERSE!
With solar so cheap and scalable we can turn entire fields and empty land to solar, use that electricity to make HYDROGEN, and then use hydrogen powered Airplanes, 18-wheelers, cruise ships, tanks, battlecruisers, suvs, etc.etc....
I know it will still be a tough transitional period no matter whay (even if nanosolar really works well) but it will buy us tme!
If it buys us 20 years or so, then by then we will get FUSION up and running! Fusion will be our eternal cheap, clean, infinite energy source! Once fusion is solved, we have basically no problems!
And with computer technology advancing and leap froging at quantum leaps pace (quantum computers) we could theoritically reach Omega Point soon after Fusion era, and then we could create smarter beings that could create even smarter beings, ad infinitum, this will likely give us miracules such as ZPE (zero point energy) and we could even discover how to manipulate gravity, space-time warp drives, and the such! The limits and possibilites are as high as the human drive and imagination!
With ZPE and fusion, who will need Oil and solar?
We can advance and move on the Mars, and even other solar systems (if warp drive or graviation drive is possible)!
So its not all that dark! Olduvia Gorge is valid ONLY if we do not find a better energy source. Who would have dreamed of using Oil during the bronze age? So why not dream of ZPE or fusion during the Oil age? China is already making their own ARTIFICIAL SUN.
We are seeing the light in the end of the tunnel and so far I think it is VERY BRIGHT! _________________ Love is patient, love is kind.
Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Joined: Jun 18, 2005 Posts: 3964 Location: In a van down by the river
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: Re: The Future seems Bright - Google invest in NanoSolar!
Actually I take back where I said it was a scam.
I think they are legit but we will have to see how profitable they are when the panels go into full scale production.
If they can make the panels cheap and easily it will really open up the solar market.
People right now are surprised at how fast wind power is taking off, cheap and easily manufactured solar panels could quickly change the way people think about and use solar power.
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: Re: The Future seems Bright - Google invest in NanoSolar!
There are many new things on the horizon that would not even be thought possible just a few years ago!
At ZPEnergy.com for example they are saying:
"We want to let the general public know that this is an active field and good progress is made towards validating this technology and bringing the first commercial operational device to the market."
If we as a society can solve ZPE, then we are truly HOME FREE!
The Chinese in Beijing are actively researching ZPE and how to tap into it for energy use for human consumption. If we succeed in this, we will have extended Oludvia Gorge by an addition several thousand years at the LEAST! _________________ Love is patient, love is kind.
Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: NanoSolar by Google: THE Energy SOLUTION
This technology looks very promising, however, the company uses CIGS (Copper Indium Gallium Diselenide) solar cells whose production may be limited by the availability of indium. According to Bloomberg, both indium and copper have undergone price volatility during last year.
Nanosolar confronts commodity risks of its own. The company uses copper and indium, both of which have undergone volatile price swings during the past year. Indium, a metal as scarce as silver, swung from $950 a kilogram in June 2005 to $1,035 in September, to $797.50 on June 5.
Quote:
Roscheisen says he doesn't aspire to replace existing electricity sources with his PowerSheet-brand solar cells.
Rather, he plans to market the product as a source of relief when electricity is most expensive -- during the afternoon, especially in the summer, when air conditioners tax the power grid. In California, electricity prices jump to 30 cents in the afternoon from 6 cents per kilowatt-hour at night. By drawing electricity from solar cells, customers can save money.
The production potential for CIGS solar cells, given today's technology, is limited by the availability of indium. For example, it is not possible with the current technology to produce CIGS modules to cover the total world electricity demand - the known sources of indium are not sufficient.
_________________ "You've got hardly any theory of social organization, astonishingly backward economic systems, no grasp of the machinery of historical prediction, and very little knowledge about yourselves." - Carl Sagan
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: NanoSolar by Google: THE Energy SOLUTION
Spartan2 wrote:
This technology looks very promising, however, the company uses CIGS (Copper Indium Gallium Diselenide) solar cells whose production may be limited by the availability of indium. According to Bloomberg, both indium and copper have undergone price volatility during last year.
Nanosolar confronts commodity risks of its own. The company uses copper and indium, both of which have undergone volatile price swings during the past year. Indium, a metal as scarce as silver, swung from $950 a kilogram in June 2005 to $1,035 in September, to $797.50 on June 5.
Quote:
Roscheisen says he doesn't aspire to replace existing electricity sources with his PowerSheet-brand solar cells.
Rather, he plans to market the product as a source of relief when electricity is most expensive -- during the afternoon, especially in the summer, when air conditioners tax the power grid. In California, electricity prices jump to 30 cents in the afternoon from 6 cents per kilowatt-hour at night. By drawing electricity from solar cells, customers can save money.
The production potential for CIGS solar cells, given today's technology, is limited by the availability of indium. For example, it is not possible with the current technology to produce CIGS modules to cover the total world electricity demand - the known sources of indium are not sufficient.
We can use atom smashers to aritifically make Indium.
So I don't see it as a road block, but with particle accelerators that can create the indium substance we will have more to use for solar panels. etc _________________ Love is patient, love is kind.
Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Joined: Apr 17, 2005 Posts: 2750 Location: Vancouver Island
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: The Future seems Bright - Google invest in NanoSolar!
AIM9X wrote:
Essentially, if NanoSolar succeeds, we will have solar panels the thinness of paint, and at a cheaper price than paint!
Only if they decide to sell them super cheap. Lots of guys figure out how to make something more efficiently and then use that technology to simply increase their margins.
AIM9X wrote:
This will be extremely scalabe and very high EROEI! With such superthin, supercheap solar panels, we can 'paint' our entire house, our entire car, our entire Businesses, and highways, and schools and hospitals,etc.
This will be a multi-fold solution. We will have affordable electric cars, (transportation solved) affordable housing costs (electricity solved)
and all we really have to worry about is those niches that cannot be solved with solar.
So say we have super cheap paint on solar panels. This in no way solves the transportation issue. Sure ou could have an electric powered car. We can do that today. Electricity is a whole 6.05 cents/kwh here making my daily drive something like $1 or $2 if I had an electric car to plug in. Make the power free from solar and I save the price of a cup of coffee.
The cost of electricity has nothing to do with why I don't have an electric car. I don't have an electric car because
1 - There are no easily available ones. Until ford, GM, honda, or toyota make one they can not be considered readily available.
2 - They won't be free or ultra cheap. My wife has a 1 year old matrix, It's paid for in 3 more years. I have a 10 year old suzuki, it's paid for. I'm not willing to take another loan out for a new vehicle and most people don't have the money to go out and buy a new one anyways. This is why there are still 30 year old 4000lb iron beasts driving the roads getting 10 mpg. The owners can't afford a new one. So basically the majority of people won't be able/willing to rush out and drop a bunch of cash on a brand new car.
3- The technology just isn't there yet at a reasonable price. Everyone still thinks they need 500 miles of range per tank/charge. To get that you need tons of battery or lots of very expensive battery, Either way it's expensive or damn expensive. I've never seen an electric car that offered more then 300 km/charge and that one was priced in porsche territory.
4- If you think you can get around the battery issue with the solar panels you need to do the math. with 100% efficient panels in the best place on earth at noon in full perfect sun the average car doesn't get hit with enough solar energy to drive it constantly. You need batteries.
Free electricity does almost nothing to change the transportation issue.
AIM9X wrote:
But wait, with so much solar panels around, global warming will actually start to go in REVERSE!
With solar so cheap and scalable we can turn entire fields and empty land to solar, use that electricity to make HYDROGEN, and then use hydrogen powered Airplanes, 18-wheelers, cruise ships, tanks, battlecruisers, suvs, etc.etc....
Oh I should have finished reading your entire post. Hydrogen, the holy grail of the cornucopians. Get back to me when they solve the storage issue, and put in the trillions worth of infrastructure.
AIM9X wrote:
I know it will still be a tough transitional period no matter whay (even if nanosolar really works well) but it will buy us tme!
If it buys us 20 years or so, then by then we will get FUSION up and running! Fusion will be our eternal cheap, clean, infinite energy source! Once fusion is solved, we have basically no problems!
The near impossible Hydrogen being used as a stop gap until we finally solve the eternally 50 years away Fusion problem. What are you going to recommend after Fusion?
AIM9X wrote:
And with computer technology advancing and leap froging at quantum leaps pace (quantum computers) we could theoritically reach Omega Point soon after Fusion era, and then we could create smarter beings that could create even smarter beings, ad infinitum, this will likely give us miracules such as ZPE (zero point energy) and we could even discover how to manipulate gravity, space-time warp drives, and the such! The limits and possibilites are as high as the human drive and imagination!
Ahh ZPE, gravity manipulation and warp drives. All solved by super intelligent humans...
AIM9X wrote:
With ZPE and fusion, who will need Oil and solar?
We can advance and move on the Mars, and even other solar systems (if warp drive or graviation drive is possible)!
By any chance are you the guy that was worried about the feasibility of his under sea kingdom and was thinking of living inside whales instead? Or maybe the guy that wanted to be surgically altered so that he could digest grass like a cow?
AIM9X wrote:
So its not all that dark! Olduvia Gorge is valid ONLY if we do not find a better energy source. Who would have dreamed of using Oil during the bronze age? So why not dream of ZPE or fusion during the Oil age? China is already making their own ARTIFICIAL SUN.
We are seeing the light in the end of the tunnel and so far I think it is VERY BRIGHT!
I'm not certain here. You could be sarcastic, or maybe you're trolling, or maybe your an idiot. Eitherway cheap solar panels will do very little to prevent peak oil _________________ shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
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