How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: Next Stop... GATTACA
EU employers free to refuse jobs to smokers.
Employers in Europe are free to refuse smokers a job, confirming their status as the continent's last pariahs.
The European Commission, which has presided over a vast array of anti-discrimination legislation in the past six years, has confirmed that it does not cover tobacco users.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14187600/ _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Joined: Jun 18, 2004 Posts: 702 Location: Western North Carolina
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
Excellent analogy Aaron!
Back when I saw that movie, I thought: "what a frightening vision of the future".
The next question is: when will they be able to exclude obese people as well, given that recent studies claim being 30lbs overweight is as dangerous to one's health as smoking? (not endorsing those findings, just parroting in this case)
As a former smoker, it never ceased to amaze me that folks could matter-of-factly say to me: "you should quit smoking, its bad for your health". Yet, it would be considered rude of me to reply: "you should lose at least 30 pounds because its bad for your health".
Granted, overweight people don't affect my health directly as does second hand smoke, but their poor lifestyle choices do affect my budget as surely as smokers do with regard to health costs.
Increased health cost to business is the main reason for excluding smokers it seems. Given the new "findings", can using a person's BMI as a reason to hire/not hire be far behind.
Gattaca indeed.
Hmm.
*edited for grammatical errors and because I thought of one more thing to add
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
Aaron wrote:
The European Commission, which has presided over a vast array of anti-discrimination legislation in the past six years, has confirmed that it does not cover tobacco users.
You know, I've always wished that anti-discrimination laws, instead of covering specific groups, were a blanket law that said: "You can't refuse a job on any grounds that have nothing to do with the person's ability to perform the job."
Because, on one hand, there are times where race or gender discrimination would be acceptable (For example, what about the owner of a Chinese restaurant that only wants to employ Chinese waiters? What about a women-only policy for working in a refuge for abused women?). On the other hand, there are plenty of stupid reasons to discriminate somebody that aren't listed on the classic "anti-discrimination lists".
Joined: Oct 09, 2005 Posts: 39 Location: Tidewater-aka- SE Virginia
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
Well, let's go one step further Roy, instead of BMI, why don't we check their blood for alcohol-we would not want someone coming in with a hangover or costing us money with liver disease. We should also check for illicit drugs and prescription drugs such as xanax, zoloft, wellbutrin etc-god forbid that they go "postal" and wage a major assault on the company-the money the company would lose!!! Hmmmm-where does it end???
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2325 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
OK, I'll play devils advocate.
Smokers use more sick time and are less productive than non-smokers. Since they generally can't smoke at their desk, smokers take a break to go have a smoke outside every hour or so. So that's 5 minutes to walk outside (not including the time spent making the rounds to gather the other smokers), 5 minutes to smoke a butt and another 5 to finally get back to their desk. Even after returning to their desk, there is the time to get back into what they where doing. In my experience, if the conversation is good, those breaks get even longer. Then there is gossip. While others are working, smokers are spreading gossip in the smoking area.
Compare that to a non-smoker who gets on a roll with their work. If a non-smoker is working on say a two hour project, they will work until it's done, with one stream of conscience. The smoker’s output is punctuated, often not uniform. The non-smoker is generally healthier, has a stronger immune system and in my opinion, more disciplined.
Sorry, but if I had employees, I'd weed out the smokers. Smoking is a drug addiction. Yes, I'm a reformed smoker. _________________ "That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
How about genetic diseases?
Should employers scan potential employees DNA looking for inherited diseases?
What about existing employees?
I could use the same argument about smokers being more expensive than non-smokers, & apply it to retirement-age workers. With more health problems and retirement benefits, these workers drain profits from my business?
Let's go one further...
How about genetic enhancements?
Modified genes for greater intelligence, health, stamina etc...
As a business owner, shouldn't I prefer these superior, modified workers over pure naturals?
How about artificial organs?
Do I insist that my employees get heart replacements, when that technology can make a better heart?
And what about ideas?
Surely some ideas are more conducive to my business than others...
Fitness
Religion?
The list goes on.
They say that hope floats... true... but so does crap. _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Joined: May 15, 2005 Posts: 4144 Location: THE MATRIX
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
edit - FYI - I believe Aaron is correct.
Oh please - More then half of you do not know what REAL WORK is!!
Alot of people see stoners the same or worse then smokers.
I worked in a factory setting windows.
Handling large and small pieces of glass with my bare hands really really farking fast and we smoked and we were stoners and some were drunken and some were high on pills ...we were second shift and we usually did 50% more work then 1st shift and they hated us for it;-)
That was then - Now I work in telecommunications.
Big money - career people etc etc - 60% smokers/stoners/pills/other 30% alcoholic or other - 10% just plain weirdo's....
The stoners outperform the straights period - I dont give a crap what any trade publication might say.
Most of that BS is based on health care costs = the bottom line.
When people perform REAL WORK they need REAL BREAKS.
U.S. productivity is up over the past 5 years - wages are not up and I bet drug use is!!!
Now what were you saying about someone who can sit for 2 hours without having a thought about anything else but their work?
I call that a well trained slave.
Yes ban fat people - ban cars - ban beef - ban everything so we slaves can live longer, work harder and pay more.
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
BMI is already a Go/No Go factor for offshore work in the North Sea, Norway.
With a BMI above 29 we will loose our medical approval to work.
Also, a friend of mine get a substantial reduction in his annual US medical insurance by volountary submit to blood tests verifying his vow not to smoke tobacco or use illigal drugs. These test will reveal any residuals from tobacco or cannabis intake in the last 2-4 weeks. However, the various drugs that get metabolized quickly does not show up...
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
Kingcoal wrote:
Smoking is a drug addiction. Yes, I'm a reformed smoker.
Oxygen is also habit forming, I hear. I'm a reformed breather.
This open prejudice and ostracising of "the smokers" is a symptom of the decline. The perception is that smokers are becoming more and more a cost burden on making things grow faster than the tobacco industry is contributing to growth. We can likely expect to see more groups, who would be looked at as the mongrels, targetted for deletion. Kind of like actively setting rat traps on the Titanic. _________________ "We have seen the enemy, and he is us." -- Walt Kelly
Joined: Apr 07, 2005 Posts: 225 Location: West of Chicago
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
I had a company with 14 people working for me. Four smokers, the rest non-smokers.
I didn't stick to the two 15 minute breaks and 1/2 hour lunch rule at all. Our lunches were usually 45 minutes, Fridays about an hour. Because it was Internet development, it was understood that when your head got jammed up with code, go walk around the block, go watch the trains go by the office. Our second conference room was a park by our office. Slamming code for 8 straight just isn't possible. We rarely did overtime but expected the projects' deadlines to be met. I wasn't a slave driver (I should have been) or a work Nazi.
That being said, the smokers took three extra smoke breaks a day, some times four. One extra in the morning, two in the afternoon -- one of them being the smoke after lunch, which extended whatever their lunch break was by another ten minutes.
So, as an employer:
1. If I'm paying for eight hours of work with reasonable breaks and lunches, why should smokers work less and get paid the same? They certainly don't stay later to make up the time.
2. If I'm paying for health insurance, why the hell would I subsidize someone's smoking habit...telling them that it's ok that they smoke, take more time during the day than nonsmokers.
If they lie on the medical form and say they don't smoke and it turns out they do, it invalidates their insurance, I believe.
So, for all the Socialists preparing to flame me: you feel you deserve the job, and the insurance, and want the nonsmokers to pay for your unhealthy habits and unproductivity. Cool.
Aaron, you are comparing things about the human body that can't be changed with something that can. Between stimulus and response is choice. Why aren't you using "show up drunk to work", "stay out all night partying and can't keep awake", "lie on resume to get job" in your list?
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
Quote:
Aaron, you are comparing things about the human body that can't be changed with something that can. Between stimulus and response is choice. Why aren't you using "show up drunk to work", "stay out all night partying and can't keep awake", "lie on resume to get job" in your list?
Fair enough...
I was just pointing out the "never-ending" nature of this type of thing.
Choice/No Choice... whatever.
If it's valid to eliminate smokers based on that logic, then it's valid to hold all other conditions in the same light without regard to what caused it.
These employers are not eliminating smokers because they "choose" it... it's a purely financial decision. _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
One thing does not follow the other.
Quite frankly you need to remember that the chains have never fully been broken. There are degrees of freedom and degrees of descrimination.
While slavery has been abolished in the States, I wouldn't for a second agree that discrimination of blacks doesn't exist there.
It seems they are simply being asked to pay closer to full freight for their actions.
Would that we could get corporations to pay full freight, like for the roads they use, the infrastructure that is built for them.
RonMN wrote:
What alot of people don't seem to understand is...once it's allowed for one group...it can happen to any/all groups.
It will begin as "you smoke, you can't work here" and before you know it...it will be "you're black, you can't work here".
Once the first link of the chain is forged...it irrevocably binds us all.
_________________ Gravity is not a force, it is a boundary layer.
Everything is coincident.
Love: the state of suspended anticipation.
To get any appreciable distance from the Earth in
a sensible amount of time, you must lie.
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2325 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Next Stop... GATTACA
Smoking is an enslaving addiction. I started smoking when I was 12. I quit at age 24. Quitting was probably the hardest thing I've ever done, everything since has been comparatively easy. I've heard that it's easier to quit heroin than cigs.
When I smoked, I 'enjoyed' the first smoke of the day, the rest were just servicing the addiction. Towards the end of my smoking career, I couldn't enjoy that morning smoke anymore because I'd wake up coughing. I quit on a "smokeout" day and I did it because a girl I liked was quitting also. She couldn't quit, I haven't had a cig since. _________________ "That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
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