How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Aug 04, 2005 Posts: 421 Location: Traded the man in front of the tank for a cat playing the banjo
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:25 am Post subject: Are we in control of our countries?
I think we are not, but then I read some posts here with a different opinion, maybe it depends on the case. In Spain I can assure you that we absolutely are not in control of our country and I really wonder how so many unqualified personnel are in charge of spending taxpayer’s and EU money with almost no control. They are also able to make laws and change important things, now they have to decide on euthanasia, abortion, genetically modified food, steem cells, educational system, army expenditure, health care, energy policy and so on, I just think we are at a very delicate and important moment and that we have lost complete control of the country, if we ever had it. I wonder how is it like in your place.
In the past we had corruption and dumbness too, but it seems to me that the politicians used to care a bit about the country itself, or maybe it is that reality was far les complex, so it was easier to deal with. The command of the country is just a huge marketing battle where the common interest completely is set aside and all that matters is how many chairs they get at the congress, no ethics, no morals, no principles
I saw a documentary on the argentinian economic collapse of 2000, one guy talks bout if the people is to be blamed for voting incompetent politicians.
“If you give people to choose between Menem (a famous politician) and Spiderman they’ll choose Menem, but if you give them to choose between Spiderman and el Zorro then you can’t blame them” _________________ When someone interprets as derogatory almost anything that is said about him (or about groups with whom he identifies) we conclude that he has inferiority feelings or low self-esteem.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6006 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Are we in control of our countries?
Who's "we"?
The people who are in control of "our" countries are the same people who have always been in control---the rich. Think of the politicians as the hands of the rich, doing their bidding. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Dec 20, 2005 Posts: 174 Location: Costa Geriatrica
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Are we in control of our countries?
Heineken wrote:
Who's "we"?
The people who are in control of "our" countries are the same people who have always been in control---the rich. Think of the politicians as the hands of the rich, doing their bidding.
Nobody is in control, anymore than any particular ant is in control of an ants nest, or any particular cell is in control of your body. The rich are no more 'in control' than the poor are.
"I don't like to read books. They muss up my mind." - Henry Ford.
The rich are far too busy concentrating on becoming and staying rich. - and that generally means being totally dedicated to a particular enterprise. With Ford it was car making and the development of the assembly line. With Bill Gates it was the development of a universal OS for personal computers.
Neither of these gentelmen have or had time to be 'in control' - outside their area of interest the rich are often incredibly ignorant. They dont have time to be anything else. - till later in life when the buzz of making money wears off a bit (making the 100th million is no where near as much fun as making the first) and figuring out how to give it away becomes more interesting.
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Are we in control of our countries?
In a word "NO" we are not and the ones that are do not work for us! _________________ Natural law -- The only law from which there is no recourse, no appeal, no hung juries.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6006 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Are we in control of our countries?
skeptic wrote:
Heineken wrote:
Who's "we"?
The people who are in control of "our" countries are the same people who have always been in control---the rich. Think of the politicians as the hands of the rich, doing their bidding.
Nobody is in control, anymore than any particular ant is in control of an ants nest, or any particular cell is in control of your body. The rich are no more 'in control' than the poor are.
"I don't like to read books. They muss up my mind." - Henry Ford.
The rich are far too busy concentrating on becoming and staying rich. - and that generally means being totally dedicated to a particular enterprise. With Ford it was car making and the development of the assembly line. With Bill Gates it was the development of a universal OS for personal computers.
Neither of these gentelmen have or had time to be 'in control' - outside their area of interest the rich are often incredibly ignorant. They dont have time to be anything else. - till later in life when the buzz of making money wears off a bit (making the 100th million is no where near as much fun as making the first) and figuring out how to give it away becomes more interesting.
You may be a very intelligent person in your sphere, but this post demonstrates not one iota of awareness of political reality.
You portray the rich as a set of doddering gentlemen with neither the time nor interest to exercise political power, when in fact exercising power, through the political apparatus of the state, is their prime directive. This is why, for example, the outrageous campaign finance laws in the US have never been reformed.
Money is power, and those who have it turn the wheels as surely as the water does in a hydroelectric dam. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Are we in control of our countries?
I agree with you 100%, skeptic.
I would add that voting is the means that democratic countries have of convincing their citizens they have a say. Very simple math can demonstrate this is not the case. It turns out that a citizen usually has less than one millionth of the choice between two (or at best three) options, with no say on the specifics of the options, every four years.
That is like saying that a prisoner that is allowed to have less than one millionth of a choice on one of two or three fixed menus once every four years, is free.
Joined: Aug 04, 2005 Posts: 421 Location: Traded the man in front of the tank for a cat playing the banjo
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Are we in control of our countries?
In my opinion there is a Power Elite that is more or less in control (more than less). Formed by the rich, the mass media, politicians, big corporations, judges, lawyers, bankers and the like. Maybe they do not control our countries, but they sure control us (in some places more than in others). This Power Elite is a solid social class that has recently realized its power, if anyone has the wheel, that’s them. I’m not saying that they have it all planned, but that there is a tendency, and that all components of the Power Elite tend to move in that tendency’s direction: more control from them over us. That’s why, for example our educational system is a failure, its on the Power Elite best interest to have dumb people, and if they can be dumb and perform high technological tasks then that’s perfect! That’s why also there is a tendency to eliminate free health care, that way we’ll all be more motivated to work, and a new partner would be allowed in the Elite: insurance companies. _________________ When someone interprets as derogatory almost anything that is said about him (or about groups with whom he identifies) we conclude that he has inferiority feelings or low self-esteem.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6006 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Are we in control of our countries?
Doly wrote:
I agree with you 100%, skeptic.
You agree with what 100%, Fusion Doly? That the rich have no political power? That the rich confine their interests and concerns only to their own immediate domains, with no interest in political control, laws, etc.?
OK, so the politicians of the world are devoted solely to the interests of the poor, right? Or the politicians operate in a vacuum and call all the shots themselves, without outside influences working on them?
I mean, what are you guys smoking?
This forum gets my vote as dumbest of the week, perhaps even of the year. I question my own intelligence for even getting involved. I'm going on a walk. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Are we in control of our countries?
The rich protect their wealth. If a class of plundering politicians exists, the rich will try to subvert this class in order to shield themselves from the corruption. It's perfectly normal for them to do as such.
The problem is not the rich however. If they ceased to be rich, the corrupt politicians would still be in business.
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Are we in control of our countries?
Quote:
The rich are far too busy concentrating on becoming and staying rich. - and that generally means being totally dedicated to a particular enterprise. With Ford it was car making and the development of the assembly line. With Bill Gates it was the development of a universal OS for personal computers.
Neither of these gentelmen have or had time to be 'in control' - outside their area of interest the rich are often incredibly ignorant. They dont have time to be anything else. - till later in life when the buzz of making money wears off a bit (making the 100th million is no where near as much fun as making the first) and figuring out how to give it away becomes more interesting.
Huh?
Most of the real entrepreneaurs I know are some of the greatest generalists you will ever meet. They have to be. Gotta see the forest over the trees.
Specialists work for generalists. Not the other way around.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6006 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Are we in control of our countries?
jaws wrote:
The problem is not the rich however. If they ceased to be rich, the corrupt politicians would still be in business.
I'm not so sure, Jaws. Politicians exist primarily to serve the rich, and in a sense are their creation.
No rich, no politicians---or at least, certainly no corrupt ones. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6006 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Are we in control of our countries?
jaws wrote:
Heineken wrote:
I'm not so sure, Jaws. Politicians exist primarily to serve the rich, and in a sense are their creation.
No rich, no politicians---or at least, certainly no corrupt ones.
Politicians exist to serve themselves.
Themselves, and the people who enable them to serve themselves. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Are we in control of our countries?
Heineken wrote:
Politicians exist primarily to serve the rich, and in a sense are their creation.
Politicians use anyone they can to leverage their own personal positions, generally they find the rich have more leverage...... _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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