Hoarding is exactly what the government is doing right now by filling the SPR, and frankly it's the best thing that could happen. It drives prices up. High prices encourage demand destruction. They also finance new well development. The hoarded oil gives us a buffer to fall back on once shortages become more prevalent. High prices are what we need in order to adapt to what's coming, and the sooner they happen, the better.
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
turmoil wrote:
Allhydrogen wrote:
Apparently you have not visited the website to understand the process. When a fuel cell is added to a electolyte water soloution of sodium/magnesium chloride (seawater), a electrochemical reaction occurs creating an unlimited sourcer of hydrogen gas-no electricity or external source of power is used. Education is most important, as there are more hydrogen technolgies coming out of the labroatory. Have you ever heard of the "cold fusion" oprocess?
The most important benefit of using hydrogen , is that no greenhouse gases, no military for wars to secure a "cheep" source of energy to destroy teh eco system. Truth passes 3 stages-ridicule, violently opposed and accepted as self evident.
Well, I went to the site and it says that they take 100 gallons of sea water and, using an external energy source (yup), they create a block of magnesium and aluminum. Then to use the hydrogen that is attached to the block, it is attached to a stainless steel cathode, and the end-user submerses it in sea water, which releases h2 until it corrodes (gets used up). But you still have to create the block in the first place and then get it and sea water to where you need it.
Sounds like EROEI < 1.
The idea of Allhydrogen is yet another example of "energy from nowhere" nonsense.
Guy should learn some basic thermodynamic not make himself looking a fool in the future.
The scam described above works like this:
1. We are producing metallic magnesium by electrolysis of molten magnesium chloride (or by reducing its oxide with silicon at 1800*C or with carbon above 2000*C in electric furnace in vacuum - magnesium distills off).
These processess are VERY energy intensive.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to produce magnesium by electrolysis of water solution of its salts, unless you want to work with LARGE amounts of mercury as well, mercury would be a cathode in the set up (also energy intensive with plenty of toxic waste as a "bonus").
2. It is correct, that metallic magnesium WILL react with salty water (especially with warm one), slowly producing hydrogen.
EROEI of all this nonsense would be in range of 0.2-0.3 at best.
If one would decide to produce hydrogen by direct electrolysis, without bullshiting around magnesium, he may get EROEI in range of 0.85, if he tries hard.
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
Instead of hoping for some pie in the sky way to get out of the oil mess, get some seeds and go start a garden. Time is running short. There is an alternative to oil. It is called simple living. People lived that way for thousands of years. It is a mindset. Get a grip, you cant eat nuts and bolts. Oxen are the alternative.
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
aflurry wrote:
you want to run your automobile fleet on hydrogen? first try making a campfire out of a pile of ashes, because it is exactly the same thing. water is burnt hydrogen. expended. depleted. finished. you can only reconstitute it by adding energy... and more than you can get back out.
This is a neat, enlightening way of describing water. I don't think I will ever drink another glass without thinking of burnt hydrogen.
Joined: Mar 04, 2006 Posts: 269 Location: La Crosse, Wisconsin
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
Well, I read the thread anyways after reading the title and the name used by the original poster. Then I immediately saw the OP's number of posts and thought, "Well there's a marshmellow about to be toasted". He could have spent less than an hour searching the site and he would have known here his post would lead. It's too bad that Americans so desperately want that one magic bullet that will replace oil. Pretty sad, and naive.
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
I don’t think it is right to expect people to spend an hour reading PO forums before posting junk science. I don’t want people to conform to my biases, it would make me blind. Instead, we ought to expect people to apply a highschool level education in chemistry/physics when considering the proposals of snake oil salesmen.
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