Don’t worry, just a little bump - $70 is just around the corner. Short traders just keep making those margin calls, mortgage the house if you have to. Fortunes await you! PO is for pansies and doomers. At $70 short some more ..... it is going back to $22 .... the world is awash with oil ........ reality has nothing to do with it, its all in those charts!!!!!!!!!!
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Wood as an auxiliary energy source
frankthetank wrote:
Not sure if your looking for wood to replace: electricity/heating/transportation, but just on the heating front, if you were to replace all natural gas with wood, it would require the same amt of acreage as all the corn crop (90million acres/give or take). This is just for NG (no electric/oil/etc). I did the math on it a couple weeks ago, i'd have to dig it up. This is for the US and i figured it using a "sustainable" method of harvesting wood. Never going to happen, IMO.
I never imagined wood could replace any of the mentioned energy sectors. I was just wondering about how much it could contribute to mitigation with other alternative fuels. Of course wood could never heat American homes alone, but a dozen wood-burning power plants could be a significant help in forest-richer states and Canada. In my country, wood already produces enough energy to heat every building; click here for reference in English. I still suspect that the role of wood could (and will) be greatly expanded during post-peak times in North America as well. _________________ "A devastating error is to set up a political system based on [individual] desire... the best dictatorship would be one where the government prevents any economical growth."
"Only scarcity and effort make life worth living."
-Pentti Linkola
Last edited by Fredrik on Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:36 pm; edited 4 times in total
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Wood as an auxiliary energy source
SpringCreekFarm wrote:
A cord of wood is defined as a stack measuring 4 feet wide by 4 feet high by 8 feet long, or a stack occupying 128 cubic feet. This is called a bush cord.
Of course when those of us who burn wood refer to a cord, it is usually 4 feet high by 8 feet long by whatever width you cut your sticks. Mine are between 16 to 18 inches. This is called a face cord.
I think that is where there is some confusion.
I normally tell people that I burn between 14 and 16 face cords per year when actually I should be telling them that I burn 672 cubic feet, which is the volume of my woodshed. I fill my shed each summer with dead, dry wood from the bush and I pretty much burn it up by spring.
I have seen some coppiced trees in my woodlot from the days that my dad cut wood. There are several large trees growing from where there was obviously a tree that lived in the past. I have a whole grove of hickory trees that are coppiced this way. I haven't got to them yet because there are too many dead trees to keep up with so I try not to cut any living trees unless they are in the way or are a casualty of cutting another tree down.
If times are as hard as some people here predict, then I predict that the population will starve long before they get all the trees in my area.
Why do you measure by size and not weight? IS this because you collect your own wood and the point is moot? For someone buying wood (city dwellers) paying the same for a 4 by 8 section of poplar vs a 4 by 8 section of oak is a big difference.
Joined: Jan 03, 2005 Posts: 1156 Location: western Wisconsin
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Wood as an auxiliary energy source
Insulation is cheaper than fuel in the long run. Our present house is an old 2 story farmhouse, gradually remodeled and insulated over the last 17 years, with wood heat. We replaced the old woodburning forced-air furnace with a new one last fall, and burned a bit more than half as much wood this winter as in most previous winters. Our new furnace is a Charmaster Chalet:
http://www.charmaster.com/wood.html and we are pleased with it. It also has a coil to preheat our domestic hot water, which we have set up with a 50 gallon water heater tank, so it is also reducing the amount of LP (propane) that we use in the winter to heat water. Our house is about 1800 square feet plus the basement, and we will use about 3 to 3.5 full cords of mixed hardwoods to heat it this winter.
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 384 Location: Windy City No Longer
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Wood as an auxiliary energy source
I noticed I had a much better burn rate with unsplit green oak than with the split, aged maple and oak I've been using the last couple months. I haven't seen that it harms the furnace and its easier to deal with to boot.
One of the other things I've noticed is that I am suffering serious heat loss on the way into the house. The heat from the water is actually melting the snow on the ground above the pipe. At some point I'll have to dig up the lines and rebury them deeper or replace them with more insulated lines. _________________ TANSTAAFL
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Wood as an auxiliary energy source
Gideon wrote:
Quote:
If you need 8-10 cords of wood for a winter, it will be difficult to stack that in your city lot backyard or basement.
If you need 8-10 cords of wood a winter, then you live in a cardboard house.
I recognize that Stupubia is not set up like it should be to heat with wood, but if it was . . .
A nice, cozy, 1,500 sf house, insulated properly, could be heated to a balmy 70 degrees F, in the Northeast (i.e. NY, CT, NJ, Mass . . . ) for about 3 cords of hardwood with a nice 40,000 BTU airtight EPA cert stove.
With regard to "fast growing" hardwood, if it's "fast growing", it's typically crap firewood.
But if what you need is 3 cords a winter for heat, then you could probably harvest that off 10 acres of land (1/3 cord per acre per year growth).
Add another cord for cooking, and you'd need about 15 acres of good forest to support a typical house.
Now we look at Stupurbia and we see 1/4 acre lot sizes.
Good planning.
Thats a great post Gideon Thanks!
I like all the numbers because it puts things into perspective, this is probably going to strike you as a stupid question but exactly how much is 1 cord of wood?
Why don't they measure it by weight?
Anyhow thanks again I learned alot from your post. _________________ "Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
-Italian Proverb
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Wood as an auxiliary energy source
WisJim wrote:
Insulation is cheaper than fuel in the long run. Our present house is an old 2 story farmhouse, gradually remodeled and insulated over the last 17 years, with wood heat. We replaced the old woodburning forced-air furnace with a new one last fall, and burned a bit more than half as much wood this winter as in most previous winters. Our new furnace is a Charmaster Chalet:
http://www.charmaster.com/wood.html and we are pleased with it. It also has a coil to preheat our domestic hot water, which we have set up with a 50 gallon water heater tank, so it is also reducing the amount of LP (propane) that we use in the winter to heat water. Our house is about 1800 square feet plus the basement, and we will use about 3 to 3.5 full cords of mixed hardwoods to heat it this winter.
There is so much that could be done if everyone started investing now. Energy is just too cheap. _________________ "Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
-Italian Proverb
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 384 Location: Windy City No Longer
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Wood as an auxiliary energy source
I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I suspect that wood is measured by volume rather than weight because it's a ton easier to get out a tape measure and measure the size of the stack than to put that stack on a scale. Buyer is assumed to know that pine is a lot different than oak/maple. _________________ TANSTAAFL
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3384 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Wood as an auxiliary energy source
benzoil wrote:
I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I suspect that wood is measured by volume rather than weight because it's a ton easier to get out a tape measure and measure the size of the stack than to put that stack on a scale. Buyer is assumed to know that pine is a lot different than oak/maple.
Also remember that seasoned wood (air dried) is a lot lighter and burns appreciably hotter than gree and still wet wood. Even green wood cut ibn winter has a decent moisture content compared to several months seasoned wood. Idealy this winter you burn the wood that you cut the wonter before and which has been seasoning since under cover so that it will be dry and light. _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Wood as an auxiliary energy source
benzoil wrote:
I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I suspect that wood is measured by volume rather than weight because it's a ton easier to get out a tape measure and measure the size of the stack than to put that stack on a scale. Buyer is assumed to know that pine is a lot different than oak/maple.
Actually measuring by size is NOT the way to measure a cord. The proper way is by weight. It all has to do with density and btu's. For example a cord of pine wood weighs 2669 pounds and only puts out 17.1 million btu's per cord. (I would not reccommend burning pine btw. but that's another issue) On the other hand a cord of white oak weighs 4012 pounds per cord and puts out 25.7 million btu's per cord. That's a difference of 1343 pounds and 8.6 million btu's. Assuming that you need 8 cords (which is much more than I use, but I live in the mid-atlantic) you're paying $400 to $480 for 136.8 million btu's for pine and 205.6 million btu's for white oak. That gives you a difference of 68.8 million btu's between two different types of wood. That means you need twelve cords of pine to equal the btu's of 8 cords of white oak. At $50 to $60 a cord that's a $200 to $240 difference for the same amount of btu's. Don't fall for the cord by size trick.
If you're looking for free wood. just call some grading and landscaping companies and tell them next time they are doing some clearing of hardwoods in your area you'll take them. Offer to even pay for they gas for delivery but don't let them charge you! This is because they either have to pay dumping fees for the stuff or pick through it to find the premium for the mill. After they pick the premium they still have to pay for dumping the rest. Most will be more than happy to dump at your place when they pay $60 to $75 a dump load at the local landfill. It's just additional cash in their pocket and gas paid for a job they had to do anyways.
It also strikes me that this thread really can't answer the question of how many cords a person needs. Although I guess it could be calculated based upon energy usage. There are just too many factors like passive solar, insulation, location, microclimate/landscaping, people in the house, comfortable temp, additional energy sources etc etc...
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: Wood as an auxiliary energy source
SOME small IDEAS.
Having a back up plan is a good thing. Like making a warm room with a tiny "back up" stove. Having a small ice fishing stove when you need it could make a big difference. And if you need to change your location, many small light stoves can go anywhere, like in a fishing tent.
Extremely Tiny Woodstoves
"The original Very Small Woodstove is the Jotul 602, from Norway. This model is a mere 12 inches wide, 19 inches deep. They are found most often in cottages and cabins in the woods, where the 602's good looks are a highlight. It's been around almost forever. Jotul claims over 1 million of these have been manufactured. Waterford and Garden Way produced a near identical stove called the Reginald 101, but it is no longer in production, but available used, as is the Jotul 602. Although very small it can heat amazingly well." http://www.jotul.us
Also I was reading an article about how some people in Poland use tiny wood stoves for extra heat in apartments. They are certainly small enough to stick a stove pipe out a window (with fittings).
Another thought, about frozen pipes... In a house a person could install drains for the water system and set up a warm room, all just in case. Most houses don't have any way to drain the pipes, like this one:
http://www.kunstler.com/Grunt_wrecked_house.html
In Old Sturbridge Village, a reenactment museum near me, the people who lived here years ago didn't have any plumbing in the walls, so freezing water pipes was not a problem. Interestingly they only warmed up their house if someone was sick. In one building, in the winter they had hanging frozen meat in the room the children slept in. The old days sure were something else! Fun fun!
Last edited by steam_cannon on Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Wood as an auxiliary energy source
Tanada wrote:
benzoil wrote:
I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I suspect that wood is measured by volume rather than weight because it's a ton easier to get out a tape measure and measure the size of the stack than to put that stack on a scale. Buyer is assumed to know that pine is a lot different than oak/maple.
Also remember that seasoned wood (air dried) is a lot lighter and burns appreciably hotter than gree and still wet wood. Even green wood cut ibn winter has a decent moisture content compared to several months seasoned wood. Idealy this winter you burn the wood that you cut the wonter before and which has been seasoning since under cover so that it will be dry and light.
This is a VERY good point and something I forgot to mention in my above post. When paying by weight DON'T pay for green wood.
The optimal mosture content is somewhere between 20% and 30% for cured. I'd be interested to know if anyone has any links to weight reduction of certain woods after cured. How many hundreds or thousands of pounds are lost after a 60% to 70% water loss.
Airtight woodstoves extract heat from wood in two ways. The primary source of heat from a woodstove is the combustion of the wood itself: the secondary source is the combustion of the gasified resins and unburned wood particles that result from the primary fire. Unless yours is a very primitive model, you'll find a baffle plate of some kind near the top of your stove, between the fire chamber and the flue outlet. This is where the secondary burn occurs, and where your stove creates up to half the heat it delivers to you. The amount of secondary combustion that occurs varies widely from model to model, largely due to advances in heat extraction technology over the years; a twelve-year-old baffled airtight can be presumed to operate at about 45% efficiency, while many of today's EPA approved woodstoves exceed 70% efficiency. The big difference between the older woodstoves and today's woodstoves can be found in the baffle area, where newer, more sophisticated techniques have been incorporated to re-burn the exhaust gases.
When you add an unseasoned or wet piece of fuelwood to your fire, the water contained in the wood heats up and turns to steam, which mixes with the exhaust gases and extinguishes the secondary burn. Regardless of how sophisticated your baffle system is, this cuts your heat output by up to 50%, and results in cool, water-laden exhaust filled with unburned particles and exhaust gases. This wet, heavy, high-density smoke travels very slowly up the chimney, where it cools even further, condensing onto the walls of the flue and causing excessive creosote formation. So, when you burn unseasoned or wet wood, you dramatically DECREASE your heat output, while dramatically INCREASING the likelihood of chimney fires.
Another drawback to burning wet or unseasoned wood is creosote formation on the viewing window. No matter how good the airwash design that keeps the window clean, it won't work when the firebox is full of wet smoke. A blackened viewing window is one of the most reliable indicators that the fuelwood is improperly seasoned.
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Wood as an auxiliary energy source
This is our stove:
It doesn't look like Lopi is carrying this model anymore. It's supposedly 70% efficient. It sure does a good job of heating our house, but our house is only 900sq. ft. I insulated the heck out of the attic last year, and we seal the windows with plastic film. We also don't bother heating the basement, but we send the exhaust air from the gas dryer into the basement with a special vent. My wife is also fond of baking.
It's really nice having that cooking surface on the stove, btw. The two levels make for a great cooking/warming set of surfaces. We boil down most of our maple sap on the stove in the late winter.
My favorite book on wood heating is "The New, Improved Wood Heat" by John Vivian, available used at Amazon for $10. A bit out of date, but full of great ideas and wisdom. Just don't split wood like they show in the picture on p. 344. (Splitting wood with your maul on a billet, next to an axe w/ head buried in the top of the same billet!)
For the record, we use between 4 and 6 face cords per winter. This winter we used 5 I think. We had a few face cords left over from last season and ordered a cord late in the winter.
I agree with everyone who said seasoned wood. There are also a number of good references online for green and seasoned wood moisture content.
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