Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3918 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being built!
Quote:
Germany`s Environment Minister Sigmar Gabriel (of the Social Democratic Party, or SPD), an advocate of renewable energy sources, would rather see wind, solar and hydro power plants built, but he hasn`t protested so far. Observers say Gabriel knows that abolishing coal would mean a resurrection of nuclear energy, which the Gabriel and the SPD want to phase out by 2021.
German coal expansion _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 6374 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
This is a HUGE problem.
New coal-fired plants in China, Germany, Texas, New Mexico and other areas are putting HUGE amounts of new CO2 into the atmosphere.
The reality is that the Kyoto treaty wasn't set up to penalize countries like Germany who signed it but then go on to break it by building more coal fired plants, and it never included CHina and its rapidly growing CO2 emissions. The Kyoto treaty was just a hypocritical coverup to let things go on as usual for another 20 years. _________________ "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
Germans are rather clever nation and their government is definitely aware of troubles with future supply of fossil fuels.
They were vocally antinuclear in the past, but I do not think that antinuke ideology is the only reason of such decision (phasing out fission).
I think that Germans are either paranoic about possibilty of terrorist attack on their nuke installations or concerned that their nuke plants may be targetted in case of war or IMO most likely they are concerned that we will not be able to mine and procass into fuel enough uranium, should global society jump out of desperation into nuclear bandwagon in near future.
That would explain their decision neatly.
If there will be a shortage of coal, gas and uranium, it is not really important which fuel we will decide to rely on most, as shortage will come anyway. In addition we have our own coal mines but we do not have or we have only traces of mineable uranium.
Best solution is to stay with coal...
And a logic in respect to GW and climate change:
Environmental concerns are not important really as China and India will burn 20 times as much coal as we are going to do anyway and therefore our possible anti GW action would amount only to silly PR exercise with no impact on climate changes, which are beyond our control in any case.
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
Your title reflects your nuclear bias.
Germany does not prefer GW over fission as the article clearly states. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3918 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
MonteQuest wrote:
Your title reflects your nuclear bias.
Germany does not prefer GW over fission as the article clearly states.
Quote:
Germany`s Environment Minister Sigmar Gabriel (of the Social Democratic Party, or SPD), an advocate of renewable energy sources, would rather see wind, solar and hydro power plants built, but he hasn`t protested so far. Observers say Gabriel knows that abolishing coal would mean a resurrection of nuclear energy, which the Gabriel and the SPD want to phase out by 2021.
Granted the SPD is not 'Germany', just one of the major pollitical forces. The fact remains they prefer pie in the sky theoretical but impratical renewables to the reallity that Coal will be the fuel of choice unless they go for Fission. _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
Tanada wrote:
The fact remains they prefer pie in the sky theoretical but impratical renewables to the reallity that Coal will be the fuel of choice unless they go for Fission.
Pie in the sky?
Theoretical?
Impractical?
Renewables?
My, but your nuclear bias does show. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3918 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
MonteQuest wrote:
Tanada wrote:
The fact remains they prefer pie in the sky theoretical but impratical renewables to the reallity that Coal will be the fuel of choice unless they go for Fission.
Pie in the sky?
Theoretical?
Impractical?
Renewables?
My, but your nuclear bias does show.
This from the poster whose constant refrain are item like "solutions in isolation" and "too little too late"?
Make up your mind Monte, are Solar and Wind going to have massive increases in availibillity over the next decade and replace FF or are they not? You know as well as I do that for baseload electric generation only three sources have so far proven themselves to be financially viable, Hydro (which you decry), Coal (which I decry) and Fission, (which I applaud and you dismiss).
Coal is the worst pollitical choice, but the one I expect to see most implemented until the coal gets too expensive or runs out.
Hydro has a limit to locations and environmental impacts of the same. We might get a fair jump from micro-hydro, 4 of the 6 dams on my local river once had small generator plants which are now defunct. The dams are still here however, so installing gensets should be possible if anyone decides to make the effort.
What does that leave? Conservation will be forced through price hikes, but it will only go so far before the citizenry who have grown used to reliable power start screaming at the polliticians, who will authorize massive increases in coal power to shut up the voters. And the beat goes on, the GHG go higher and we all risk the tipping point smacking us in the face. _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
Tanada wrote:
This from the poster whose constant refrain are item like "solutions in isolation" and "too little too late"?
Make up your mind Monte, are Solar and Wind going to have massive increases in availibillity over the next decade and replace FF or are they not?
No, they are not.
Quote:
What does that leave?
Powerdown, restricted per capita energy use, and population reduction.
Renewables under this scenario will do just fine. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Jun 28, 2005 Posts: 524 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
I think that Germans are either paranoic about possibilty of terrorist attack on their nuke installations or concerned that their nuke plants may be targetted in case of war or IMO most likely they are concerned that we will not be able to mine and procass into fuel enough uranium, should global society jump out of desperation into nuclear bandwagon in near future.
That would explain their decision neatly.
Another being the supply side. Coal (both black and brown) can be mined for locally, in North Rhine Wesphalia, where the largest amount of these coal fired plants is to be built. That would at least reduce the CO2 issue when it comes to transport for a bit...And it would raise energy independence by some degree. _________________ The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function.
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
The Germans wil probably try to sequester the extra carbon. I know a big problem they have with nuclear is the storage of radioactive waste. The valid reasoning is that this waste will have to be secured indefinitely at huge cost. The other problem is the underground area where this waste is stored may suffer geological shifts in the future causing God knows what environmental damage. When you see the expansion of Chindia and the failure of the US to sign up to Kyoto maybe its time to throw the hands in the air and see how it plays out.
The one thing the Germans don't want is to have mother Russia clasping their balls with one hand while the other hand is on the flow valves from the gas pipelines. _________________ www.askaboutenergy.com
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
There is no such thing as nuclear waste. It is a wasted resource that can be used to produce energy in breeder reactors. The currently used nuclear technology is a wasteful dinosaur that squanders energy and produces a problem instead. Instead of wasting billions on tokamak fusion, serious effort should be put into building breeder fission reactors.
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
dissident wrote:
The currently used nuclear technology is a wasteful dinosaur that squanders energy and produces a problem instead. Instead of wasting billions on tokamak fusion, serious effort should be put into building breeder fission reactors.
Trouble is, breeder reactors have all ended in catastrophically expensive failure everywhere it was tried. Commercialization of the fast breeder is nowhere in sight.
Like solar technology, we need long-range planning to develop breeder technologies, irrespective of economics. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3429 Location: California, USA
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
Scientific American 2005 December: new technologies for recycling nuclear waste into fuel with 95% efficiency.
As for "let's see how (coal & GW) play out," see also Lovelock's recent book. +5 Celsius = game over, we lose.
As for population growth: I say sterilize everyone after their first kid, males included, and make it a felony to try to evade paternity (just to make sure the men get snipped too). A few generations of that can get us down to approx. 2 billion humans, at which point change the rules to sterilize everyone after their second child, and keep it going at that level.
Realistically that's not going to happen, and the future looks like a ballistic trajectory off a cliff.
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
gg3 wrote:
As for population growth: I say sterilize everyone after their first kid, males included, and make it a felony to try to evade paternity (just to make sure the men get snipped too). A few generations of that can get us down to approx. 2 billion humans, at which point change the rules to sterilize everyone after their second child, and keep it going at that level.
I checked into that.
One-child policy gets us to ZPG in 25 years.
Until then, we still grow the population due to demographics. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3918 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Germany prefers GW over Fission, 26 coal plants being bu
MonteQuest wrote:
dissident wrote:
The currently used nuclear technology is a wasteful dinosaur that squanders energy and produces a problem instead. Instead of wasting billions on tokamak fusion, serious effort should be put into building breeder fission reactors.
Trouble is, breeder reactors have all ended in catastrophically expensive failure everywhere it was tried. Commercialization of the fast breeder is nowhere in sight.
Like solar technology, we need long-range planning to develop breeder technologies, irrespective of economics.
If you say compared to $12.00 oil, $2.00 Natural Gas and $1.50 coal with $10.00 Uranium that Breeders are too expensive to compete I will fully endorse that statement.
With $60.00 oil, $8.00 Natural Gas and $35.00 coal with $113 Uranium? That is a whole different ballgame. However in the past every time someone has built any breeder reactor in competition with those big four resources the price of all four have crashed, leaving the builders bankrupt because they can not compete against cheap supplies derived from nature vs what they have to work hard to manufacture. _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
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