Don’t worry, just a little bump - $70 is just around the corner. Short traders just keep making those margin calls, mortgage the house if you have to. Fortunes await you! PO is for pansies and doomers. At $70 short some more ..... it is going back to $22 .... the world is awash with oil ........ reality has nothing to do with it, its all in those charts!!!!!!!!!!
Joined: Jan 03, 2005 Posts: 1154 Location: western Wisconsin
Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: solar power to hydrogen
They might be actually producing a hydrogen fuel cell car, and Honda is also, but they certainly aren't practical if by practical we include affordable. I have been hearing that hydrogen fuel cells would be commercially available and affordable any year now, for decades, just like PVs that will be a dollar a watt or cheaper. Still waiting. A year or so ago I got curious about comparing the efficiency of lead acid batteries versus hydrogen fuel cells, hoping that fuel cells and hydrogen generation equipment might be a replacement for the large batteries that I now store my power in, generated by the wind and sun, and the info that I could find seemed to indicate that lead acid batteries are more efficient through the entire process of making to storing to using the electricity, to say nothing of the cost. I think that the hydrogen fuel cell Hondas are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, price wise.
Joined: May 17, 2008 Posts: 39 Location: UK, Yorkshire
Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: solar power to hydrogen
WisJim wrote:
They might be actually producing a hydrogen fuel cell car, and Honda is also, but they certainly aren't practical if by practical we include affordable. I have been hearing that hydrogen fuel cells would be commercially available and affordable any year now, for decades, just like PVs that will be a dollar a watt or cheaper. Still waiting. A year or so ago I got curious about comparing the efficiency of lead acid batteries versus hydrogen fuel cells, hoping that fuel cells and hydrogen generation equipment might be a replacement for the large batteries that I now store my power in, generated by the wind and sun, and the info that I could find seemed to indicate that lead acid batteries are more efficient through the entire process of making to storing to using the electricity, to say nothing of the cost. I think that the hydrogen fuel cell Hondas are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, price wise.
It's not a fuel cell car - it's an adapted bi-fuel internal combustion engine. They can work on diesel or petrol/gas. It's one of the big advantages of this system that it uses a lot of existing technology an infrastructure. The electrolysers that generate the H are low cost and simple, and can use off peak/renewable electricity.
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:32 am Post subject: Re: solar power to hydrogen
fraggie wrote:
Would it be feasable to use solar power to make hydrogen? Not talking industry scale here mind you, just enough to run your car ?
No; Only industry scale makes any sense for hydrogen production simply because the capital requirements for doing hydrogen production are large. Using ordinary electrolysis imparts huge exergy losses, which are avoided by using thermochemical techniques, high temperature steam electrolysis, or some other high volume, high capital method that generally works well only when its run all the time.
Then it would likely be useless as a fuel still because of the absolutely terrible volumentric energy density. But given by the time industry and the rest of us need it, we'll have had many coal liquefaction plants up and running that have almost all the same hardware for turning coal into gasoline as you need to turn hydrogen and CO2 into gasoline if you have a hydrogen source.
Joined: Mar 04, 2005 Posts: 2557 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Is the Hydrogen Age Just Around the Corner?
Aviation first: Plane flies on hydrogen, fuel cells
Quote:
Engineers from across Europe have successfully developed and flown a manned airplane powered by hydrogen and fuel cells — a first in history and a step towards cleaner and more energy-efficient aviation, Boeing announced Thursday.
The two-seat, propeller-driven plane flew three test flights in February and March at the airfield in Ocana, Boeing said.
During the flights, the pilot climbed to 3,300 feet using lithium batteries and power generated by hydrogen fed into fuel cells, which in turn create electricity to power an electric motor.
msnbc _________________ Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Is the Hydrogen Age Just Around the Corner?
Many things that are POSSIBLE are not practical. We have been to the moon, but it has not become a tourist attraction with as much traffic as Disney World.
Those espousing hydrogen as fuel system (NOTE: IT IS NOT A SOURCE!) conveniently ignore that it is only a storage system, and must have an INPUT of energy from somewhere. So, solve THAT FIRST before you even broach the topic, or you have no credibility. _________________ Local fix-it guy..
Joined: Sep 25, 2005 Posts: 1969 Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Is the Hydrogen Age Just Around the Corner?
Graeme wrote:
Aviation first: Plane flies on hydrogen, fuel cells
Quote:
Engineers from across Europe have successfully developed and flown a manned airplane powered by hydrogen and fuel cells — a first in history and a step towards cleaner and more energy-efficient aviation, Boeing announced Thursday.
The two-seat, propeller-driven plane flew three test flights in February and March at the airfield in Ocana, Boeing said.
During the flights, the pilot climbed to 3,300 feet using lithium batteries and power generated by hydrogen fed into fuel cells, which in turn create electricity to power an electric motor.
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: Better than lithium ion battery and renders hydrogen gas.
Ruthenium and its ability to absorb hydrogen somehow was made into a battery prototype by some researchers at the University of Tokyo. It was demonstrated to hold a charge better than lithium ion batteries with nearly 96% retention of the incoming charge over a period they claimed reached months. The size of the prototype was equal to that of a standard laptop battery, yet in a small battery bank series powered an electric car motor at full speed for hours. I thought this would have been world news by now, yet there is silence.
Does anyone have more info? Can somebody out there get some more info out of Tokyo if you have access to this technology? Why is it being kept "under wraps"?
Last edited by BatteryNut on Sun May 25, 2008 8:27 pm; edited 3 times in total
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Better than lithium ion battery but too costly?
When heavy grade crude oil (the longest hydrocarbon chains, such as asphalt) is heated in a closed chamber using this same metal (ruthenium) as a cathode and anode side to a double walled chamber (for example, cathode base as steel with ruthenium layer and anode similarly layered at opposite sides of the sealed chamber directing the electrical flow through the heated crude) - at the conventional point of cracking...it renders hydrogen gas and graphite. To keep the graphite from contaminating the raw crude after being processed has not yet been determined, but it should be stressed that it is indeed possible to efficiently separate a hydrocarbon chain into hydrogen gas and pure carbon using an electrical based ruthenium catalyst.
The net energy value of the process is almost equal to that of conventional cracking itself...and in fact can be neutral if thermal voltaics are used to supply the current.
It results in a fuel of hydrogen gas and pure carbon from the least desirable heavy grade crude oil.
Yet another bit of research in the platinum group metals that has yet to be developed fully or that is simply too costly due to the horrible expense of these highly utilitarian metals?
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Better than lithium ion battery but too costly?
BatteryNut wrote:
Yet another bit of research in the platinum group metals that has yet to be developed fully or that is simply too costly due to the horrible expense of these highly utilitarian metals?
Bingo. They have special access to trace elements and somehow think their experiments with them will have any impact outside of the lab. They just won't scale. I think scientists like these should be sent to economics 101 before they are allowed to waste so much time on dead-ends like this.
Joined: Mar 04, 2005 Posts: 2557 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: Is the Hydrogen Age Just Around the Corner?
Europe ponies up for fuel cell, hydrogen cars
Quote:
European governments agreed Friday to spend $731 million developing fuel cells and hydrogen technology for cars that could slash oil consumption and carbon dioxide emissions within decades.
Car and energy companies such as Daimler AG and Royal Dutch Shell PLC are expected to match or exceed the EU funding for the six-year research project that should speed up research and make cleaner cars a commercial reality between 2010 and 2020.
The European Commission says hydrogen cars could cut the amount of oil used by road transport by 40 percent by 2040 and halve carbon emissions by 2050.
msnbc _________________ Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
Joined: Sep 25, 2005 Posts: 1969 Location: Waiuku, New Zealand
Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Is the Hydrogen Age Just Around the Corner?
Graeme wrote:
Quote:
could slash oil consumption and carbon dioxide emissions within decades.
Just highlighting that this report talks about decades. With hydrogen, this has been a constant theme - decades to being significant, not "just around the corner".
Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Is the Hydrogen Age Just Around the Corner?
Could part of the problem with hydrogen be that we have'nt had the need to change to it ?
They say hydrogen is a few decades away but if we did a world wide project to make hydrogen our next transportation fuel would hydrogen then become a possible reality ?
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