Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
threadbear wrote:
The industry did not simply pass on increases in the "spot" market price of crude oil - which is the highest price a major oil company would pay for crude oil -- as pump prices rose over 54 cents per gallon higher in the U.S. than the increase in spot crude.
The 54 cents per gallon extra increase at the pump is primarily attributable to increased refinery and marketing profit margins for the oil companies
http://www.unbossed.com/index.php?itemid=1164
Another who hasn't a clue! LOL! _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
threadbear wrote:
MonteQuest wrote:
threadbear wrote:
Conoco Phillips Royal Dutch Shell, ExxonMobil, BP, Chevron-Texaco,( and now it's fewer as there have been more mergers), by dominating half or more of each of these markets, control domestic production.
They also control refinery capacity, and the supply and price of gasoline charged to retail gas stations.
They control the trading of gasoline futures? LOL!
Utter nonsense. Post this over at the oildrum and you will be laughed away.
Yes, that does seem a bit bizarre
Bizarre? How about next to impossible? How would it be done? How do you get more traders to be buyers than sellers? Where would the money come from? You understand that in order to manipulate up the price of a commodity, you have to buy it or get others to buy it, don't you?
How could you keep it covert? LOL! _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
threadbear wrote:
Who you gonna believe, corporate shills or your lyin' eyes? Perhaps you can explain how windfall profits are generated then?
Asked and answered ad nasuem, but one more time from Prof. Goose over at the oildrum:
Quote:
Why are oil companies making record profits?
Because the wells they are producing from today were drilled in past years, where they used $15-25 per barrel as their estimated selling price for the oil. Thus when the market got tight, they have cheap oil going at a higher price. Why? Simple—demand is high.
Now this higher priced oil is filtering back to them in the form of higher priced goods, so the profits decline slowly over time as higher priced energy enters the economic mill. But right now, they are making a lot of money.
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
And from Robert Rapier:
Quote:
Gouging: The Lazy Man's Answer
A large portion of the population - including many politicians, judging from recent hearings into the matter - seem to believe that "price gouging" is the explanation for higher gas prices. This explanation reeks of an inability to actually understand the issues. Of course oil companies do seek to maximize profits, but they can't do so by merely raising the price of gasoline. That is done by the market, and if prices go up the companies earn more money. The cause of higher oil company profits is that oil and gasoline prices have gone up. But many have cause and effect mixed up. They believe that the cause of higher gasoline prices is "profiteering." If that were the case, the oil industry would not be cyclical.
People seem to understand that when the price of gold rises, gold mining companies make more money. And there doesn't seem to be a widespread misconception that the reason they are making more money is that they just decided to raise the price of gold. People understand that they can't do this. It is the same with oil companies and the price of gasoline.
Why don't you try to post your nonsense over there?
Don' t think you would get very far.
When you called them "oildumb", it said it all .... _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5504 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
Most in the US think nothing of reaping the gains for themselves from the inflationary appreciation on the value of their homes, and in fact, there isn't even a federal tax on gains for the first $250,000 in profit ($500,000 for married persons). Yet the US government is heavily subsidizing the home mortgage industry in many ways, and should rationally be compensated by taxing part of those gains.
So if individuals are allowed to pay no tax on gains as they benefit from a heavily subsidized mortgage system, plus inflation and supply/demand, why is it then that refiners who are making a much smaller percentage gain from inflation and supply/demand paying a high amount of taxes and being called price gougers at the same time? _________________ It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
So through no fault of their own, big oil is the unwitting and grateful recipient of windfall profits and this has nothing to do with manipulating prices directly or issuing misleading or false statements, etc... Man oh man...what a pile of crud.
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
threadbear wrote:
So through no fault of their own, big oil is the unwitting and grateful recipient of windfall profits and this has nothing to do with manipulating prices directly or issuing misleading or false statements, etc... Man oh man...what a pile of crud.
Again...
How would it be done? How could they "manipulate prices directly"? How do you get more traders to be buyers than sellers? Where would the money come from? You understand that in order to manipulate up the price of a commodity, you have to buy it or get others to buy it, don't you?
How do you manipulate the price of an item at an auction?
Not done. Highest bidder sets the price.
Same with oil. Same with gasoline. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
MonteQuest wrote:
The cause of higher oil company profits is that oil and gasoline prices have gone up. But many have cause and effect mixed up. They believe that the cause of higher gasoline prices is "profiteering." If that were the case, the oil industry would not be cyclical.
Here's is what he means by cyclical:
Quote:
We have just seen how the fluctuation of supply and demand always bring the price of a commodity back to its cost of production. The actual price of a commodity, indeed, stands always above or below the cost of production; but the rise and fall reciprocally balance each other, so that, within a certain period of time, if the ebbs and flows of the industry are reckoned up together, the commodities will be exchanged for one another in accordance with their cost of production. Their price is thus determined by their cost of production.
Threadbear, I suggest you read this. Maybe you can come unglued from your untenable position.
By what is the price of a commodity determined?
Quote:
By the competition between buyers and sellers, by the relation of the demand to the supply, of the call to the offer. The competition by which the price of a commodity is determined is threefold.
The same commodity is offered for sale by various sellers. Whoever sells commodities of the same quality most cheaply, is sure to drive the other sellers from the field and to secure the greatest market for himself. The sellers therefore fight among themselves for the sales, for the market. Each one of them wishes to sell, and to sell as much as possible, and if possible to sell alone, to the exclusion of all other sellers. Each one sells cheaper than the other. Thus there takes place a competition among the sellers which forces down the price of the commodities offered by them.
But there is also a competition among the buyers; this upon its side causes the price of the proffered commodities to rise.
Finally, there is competition between the buyers and the sellers: these wish to purchase as cheaply as possible, those to sell as dearly as possible. The result of this competition between buyers and sellers will depend upon the relations between the two above-mentioned camps of competitors – i.e., upon whether the competition in the army of sellers is stronger. Industry leads two great armies into the field against each other, and each of these again is engaged in a battle among its own troops in its own ranks. The army among whose troops there is less fighting, carries off the victory over the opposing host.
Price is always a competition. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5504 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
threadbear wrote:
So through no fault of their own, big oil is the unwitting and grateful recipient of windfall profits and this has nothing to do with manipulating prices directly or issuing misleading or false statements, etc... Man oh man...what a pile of crud.
Refiners don't control prices. Early on this year, 2007, their profit margin fell to almost zero for a few days. For all we know, refiners margins in a few months could be low again.
Surprisingly not too many months after Hurricane Katrina, refiners profits were also low.
If refiners could manipulate prices, then why did they let their profit margins get so low at times very recently? _________________ It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
Their profit fell to nearly 0 % for two days! Ohmygod. Take up a collection! And people dare to criticize these brave stalwart captains of industry. It's disgusting, an outrage, I tell you.
I've figured out what's wrong with a lot of bean counting types. They see facts, but can't interpret them.
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
Threadbear,
You are rife with opinions but nothing to support them. You ask me to support mine and I do so with very credible links from very credible sources.
Tells us readers just exactly how it would it be done? How could they "manipulate prices directly"? How could they directly control gas futures and their trading?
Put up or shutup. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
You are a good collector of data that appears to support your point of view. I could link all sorts of articles by Ralph Nadar, etc... but I have tried to meet you on your own field of play. Unfortunately you don't seem to be able to engage without threatening to turf people who don't agree with you. I suggest you read this carefully, because you're damaging the forum.
"Put up or shut up" is no way to handle differences of opinion, and matters regarding assessing the hows, whys and wherefores of the oil business. It isn't just about clear cut geological science. It's a human business endeavor, with all seven deadly sins embodied within it, as in many human affairs. You don't question, you cross examine. You don't advise, you harass. Your "science" is a thinly veiled attempt to force all data into a bed of Procustus, that suits your point of view. Grow up.
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
threadbear wrote:
You are a good collector of data that appears to support your point of view. I could link all sorts of articles by Ralph Nadar, etc... but I have tried to meet you on your own field of play. Unfortunately you don't seem to be able to engage without threatening to turf people who don't agree with you. I suggest you read this carefully, because you're damaging the forum.
"Put up or shut up" is no way to handle differences of opinion, and matters regarding assessing the hows, whys and wherefores of the oil business. It isn't just about clear cut geological science. It's a human business endeavor, with all seven deadly sins embodied within it, as in many human affairs. You don't question, you cross examine. You don't advise, you harass. Your "science" is a thinly veiled attempt to force all data into a bed of Procustus, that suits your point of view. Grow up.
And you are a zero collector of data to support yours. Put up or shut means provide support or evidence of your opinion or get out of the debate. Threatening to "turf" you???? What's that? Ground you? How is demanding evidence a threat of anything?
Don' t like having your feet held to the fire?
Tough. Hit the ignore button.
Your tinfoil hat conspiracies undermine this forum's credibility, not my insistence on you following the basic elements of debate.
You want it nice like I asked many times before?
Please provide evidence as to how the refineries directly manipulate the price of gasoline or stay out of the debate.
Why should you be held to a different standard than other posters with an opinion, hmm?
You want a forum where you don't have to support your claims or opinions, start a blog without a comments section.
Rather than back up your claims or refute my evidence, you resort to attacking me, rather than debate the merits.
You know that is again the site rules, don't you? _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Last edited by MonteQuest on Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:45 am Post subject: Re: Refinery outages = market manipulation?
they are ripping you off. anybody who talks about the difficulty of building a refinery ignores the fact the oil companies are closing refineries wherever they can. such as in california. it should have been clear to everyone how we are being manipulated when the gas prices fell in the last two months prior the midterm elections. at this time, by the way, there was an actual refinery fire, etc., that should have driven the price up. it didn't, and the price fell right up to the election, which the bastards lost anyway. it may drop for the next year and a half before the next election as the right wing fascists attempt to actually make us forget how Bush has ripped us off since day one, and make one of their latest stooges as viable option. This will require them to sacrifice some record profits for a few months, so they can get another four years of raping the american public. if you dont believe that, you are just kidding yourself...
wake up!
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And people dare to criticize these brave stalwart captains of industry. It's disgusting, an outrage, I tell you.
