I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4753 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: "Toxic Culture USA": Spreading the disease
coyote wrote:
vision-master wrote:
People think if your "depressed" just snap out of it, go do something.
Well, if it's really bad, your lucky enough to get out of bed in the morning.
That's so true, vision. There is a lot of over-medication going on, especially of our children (I'm glad Ritalin wasn't around when I was a kid, or they definitely would have doped me up; I'd have gotten better grades, but probably wouldn't have been as creative) -- but there are some people who simply cannot function without some help from these medications, support groups, etc., and it has nothing to do with the pharm companies pushing the goods. For their sakes, I hope the meds don't disappear immediately post-peak.
What the Doc's don't tell ya is, these "meds" can be very addicting & can cause more problems than they slove.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13065 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: "Toxic Culture USA": Spreading the disease
Thing is, if you can't function without them (like my sister and me) it doesn't matter how "addictive" they are. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: Nov 25, 2006 Posts: 1527 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: "Toxic Culture USA": Spreading the disease
mmasters wrote:
Beyond the last 100-200 years the average age a person lived to was about 25.
Do you have a source for that? I think you're exaggerating more than just a little. Life may not be the spoiled wonder it is for 1st worlders today but it wasn't as miserable, brutish and short as alot of people like to imagine it was (often to justify "progress" though probably not in your case since you're here). _________________ My PO Amazon store (shameless plug).
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: "Toxic Culture USA": Spreading the disease
vision-master wrote:
dissimulo wrote:
IMO, spoiled people are more likely to complain of depression than those who struggle daily to survive.
We'll probably be a lot less depressed soon.
That has nothing to do with it.
People think if your "depressed" just snap out of it, go do something.
Well, if it's really bad, your lucky enough to get out of bed in the morning. Besides, depression is offen mixed with other things like anxiety. Ever wonder how it would feel having both going on at the same time?
The problem I have with that argument is that there doesn't seem to have been the same degree of disabling depression in earlier times, nor is it so pronounced in third world locales where people should have good cause to be depressed. Meriwether Lewis suffered from melancholia and yet managed to do some pretty amazing things.
I understand depression can be biological, but it seems people who live in hard circumstances are more able to overcome it than people who live the easy life. _________________ With a farewell scream of escaping steam, the boiler bows to the Diesel;
The Iron Horse has run its course and we ride a chromium weasel
-Ogden Nash
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: "Toxic Culture USA": Spreading the disease
Narz wrote:
mmasters wrote:
Beyond the last 100-200 years the average age a person lived to was about 25.
Do you have a source for that? I think you're exaggerating more than just a little. Life may not be the spoiled wonder it is for 1st worlders today but it wasn't as miserable, brutish and short as alot of people like to imagine it was (often to justify "progress" though probably not in your case since you're here).
Yeah I exaggerated a little on the 100-200 years part but 200 years and beyond, around 25 was the average life expectancy.
This guy says 30 around 1800:
Quote:
Today, global life expectancy at birth is about 67 years; two centuries ago it was 30 years or less.
Hard to find a chart that goes that far back but you can read backwards into the trend on these:
Suprising eh? _________________ Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destory health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information and religions destroy spirituality.
Joined: Jun 18, 2004 Posts: 800 Location: Western North Carolina
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: Re: "Toxic Culture USA": Spreading the disease
The thing that is misleading about average life expectancy is that, in times past, it was much lower than today, such as the 30 year number mentioned above.
However, that doesn't mean that people didn't live past 30. It means that a significant number of children died before the age of 5.
If a person lived to the age of 5, then his/her chances of living to 80 were much improved.
So the actual average lifespan for an ADULT was much higher than 25 or 30.
In fact the ancient Romans had a term for the human lifespan called the Saeculum (sp?) that was talked about quite a bit in the Fourth Turning. The posited that an 80 year lifecycle has always been the norm for humans.
The biggest difference between today and then, wrt life expectancy, is the number of people that make it past 5 years of age.
I'm not saying that life wasn't harder or more dangerous in the past, only that the term 'average life span' can be misleading.
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: Re: "Toxic Culture USA": Spreading the disease
Roy wrote:
However, that doesn't mean that people didn't live past 30. It means that a significant number of children died before the age of 5.
This is an important thing to remember. The elder among people have alwas lived up to around 80. The only difference is that there used to be a lot less of them.
And population remained about constant, in spite of the fact that the average couple had 8 to 10 babies - the amount expected without contraception. That tells you that only about 20% survived to the age of 15.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4753 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: Re: "Toxic Culture USA": Spreading the disease
dissimulo wrote:
vision-master wrote:
dissimulo wrote:
IMO, spoiled people are more likely to complain of depression than those who struggle daily to survive.
We'll probably be a lot less depressed soon.
That has nothing to do with it.
People think if your "depressed" just snap out of it, go do something.
Well, if it's really bad, your lucky enough to get out of bed in the morning. Besides, depression is offen mixed with other things like anxiety. Ever wonder how it would feel having both going on at the same time?
The problem I have with that argument is that there doesn't seem to have been the same degree of disabling depression in earlier times, nor is it so pronounced in third world locales where people should have good cause to be depressed. Meriwether Lewis suffered from melancholia and yet managed to do some pretty amazing things.
I understand depression can be biological, but it seems people who live in hard circumstances are more able to overcome it than people who live the easy life.
I think it's called exercise + a simpler life. I tend to agree with you. Besides, cannabis was for the taking back then......
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: "Toxic Culture USA": Spreading the disease
I think the simplest explanation for increaed depression is the fact that so few of us connect with the ultimate buyers of our services, so our work does not bring us closer to people. And, though we are often busy, the work we are busy doing is not perceived by us to be valuable. The boss has a whim, and next thing you know we are working at 10 PM doing a powerpoint poresentation. Next week, his boss has a different whim and we are on a different tangent. But, the boss' needs are not as multidimensional as real customers.
Where I work, it seems to be the reality that our front line workers who deal with the public, much of their work being outside, have the highest satisfaction, higher than our supervisors and managers. Our inside blue collar workers who do not contact the customers have the lowest satisfaction, and the worse absenteeism. Yet, in so many ways, they have been mollycoddled with all kinds of job security, liberal overtime payment and union protections when it comes to seniority. We bosses think they have it made in the shade, but overall, they are an unhappy lot.
A similar trend emerged among stay at home housewives back in the fities and sisties. As labor saving devices became the norm in the home, mom was getting bored. And depressed.
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: "Toxic Culture USA": Spreading the disease
Denny wrote:
I think the simplest explanation for increaed depression is the fact that so few of us connect with the ultimate buyers of our services, so our work does not bring us closer to people. And, though we are often busy, the work we are busy doing is not perceived by us to be valuable. The boss has a whim, and next thing you know we are working at 10 PM doing a powerpoint poresentation. Next week, his boss has a different whim and we are on a different tangent. But, the boss' needs are not as multidimensional as real customers.
Where I work, it seems to be the reality that our front line workers who deal with the public, much of their work being outside, have the highest satisfaction, higher than our supervisors and managers. Our inside blue collar workers who do not contact the customers have the lowest satisfaction, and the worse absenteeism. Yet, in so many ways, they have been mollycoddled with all kinds of job security, liberal overtime payment and union protections when it comes to seniority. We bosses think they have it made in the shade, but overall, they are an unhappy lot.
A similar trend emerged among stay at home housewives back in the fities and sisties. As labor saving devices became the norm in the home, mom was getting bored. And depressed.
In short, people have no meaning. Meaningfulness is just a long, abstract word like obfuscate. When a person works constantly for minimum (or in my case as a student, no pay), in a very non-rewarding fashion (I experience this as a student), it is hard not to feel depressed. I am miserable with my schooling.
Erich Fromm wrote a book in the late 70's that predicted that relationships and love would break down so much with people that we'll see police in schools, increases in violence, and also in some other works, a marked increase in the indulgence of orgiastic pursuits (note the word orgy as a root). Drugs, sex, and alcohol chracterize orgiastic pursuits. In my school, of 37 kids in my class, 34 admitted to stealing alcohol from their parents, and 35 admitted to both drinking at their house, friends houses, and out on the street. This is a Catholic school on Long Island with a reputation. Bill O'Reilley is an alumnus.
Remember Virginia Tech? Many knew of him, but had no real relationship and many didn't even know his name or face. Remember what Fromm said, that violence would increase in tandem with a decrease in relationships. FOr those of you who ahve ever worked in an office, how amny of you really knew the guy at the next desk? How many of you knew large numbers of students at your school? (These questions really apply for those experiencing work and school 1985/90 and after). _________________ Only a city man would carry a bag of iron instead of a bag of rice.
-Ling Tan, from the movie Dragon Seed, 1944 (more wisdom from Turner Classic Movies)
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: "Toxic Culture USA": Spreading the disease
vision-master wrote:
dissimulo wrote:
IMO, spoiled people are more likely to complain of depression than those who struggle daily to survive.
We'll probably be a lot less depressed soon.
That has nothing to do with it.
People think if your "depressed" just snap out of it, go do something.
Well, if it's really bad, your lucky enough to get out of bed in the morning. Besides, depression is offen mixed with other things like anxiety. Ever wonder how it would feel having both going on at the same time?
I don't have to wonder. Glad those days are long gone.
I live in the "country" on an island with about 2000 people. Just about everyone seems pretty happy. When I go in to the city, I realize instantly why people are so depressed. Cities are depressing, corporate dominance and hyper competetiveness are hyper depressing. Everyone is in such a hurry too. Crazy crazy. It's like people CAN'T gear down. Even when they don't have to be "doing" they find an excuse to be busy. Every minute is pre-planned. What a way to live. Nutso.
Joined: Dec 02, 2005 Posts: 6684 Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: "Toxic Culture USA": Spreading the disease
Is there any more telling symbol of all that is wrong with our culture than the media's obsession with people who are "famous for being famous"? This is how far we've sunk:
The media began setting up shop outside the jail five days before her scheduled arrival.
How low can we go? No wonder we're all so depressed. _________________ "Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3Next
Page 2 of 3
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
