Joined: Nov 03, 2007 Posts: 195 Location: cascadia
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
Cool idea Rocc, and nice follow through. Ditto on the jaw-jabbers.
The same tube material is also used for stream conduits under roads, and they take a long long time to rust even when water is flowing through them 24/7. You should have no problems in the desert, although I agree with gg3 that water and sewage are the big two limiting factors for any stay over a few days.
I don't think lightning is an issue at all. Not only is the tube a good conductor in direct contact with the Earth, but it is effectively a Faraday cage and provides a moderate amount of protection from EMPs. In fact, unless they are right on top of the tube, chances are very good the govt wouldn't even detect electronic signals from inside the tube. So you can play your ipod while waiting for the dust to settle.
One idea though. I've been kicking around this idea for an air cleaner. I want to develop something for inside cars to filter out the various hydrocarbons and particulate matter. Seems like it might be useful for the tube, possibly?
My plan was to take a vacuum cleaner HEPA filter (dirt devil makes a very nice cylindrical shaped HEPA filter), add a squirrel cage fan and fill the inside of the filter with activated charcoal and maybe some cotton wool. I think this might be good enough to capture many radioactive particles, although it won't stop the particles from emitting radiation. It wouldn't help for CO, but I am quite sure that if someone can manage to get a hose into your tube, you can probably get a clean shot.
Anyway, just a thought... thanks for sharing your preps... always good to have more ideas.
Joined: Apr 17, 2005 Posts: 2680 Location: Vancouver Island
Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:01 am Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
culicomorpha wrote:
My plan was to take a vacuum cleaner HEPA filter (dirt devil makes a very nice cylindrical shaped HEPA filter), add a squirrel cage fan and fill the inside of the filter with activated charcoal and maybe some cotton wool. I think this might be good enough to capture many radioactive particles, although it won't stop the particles from emitting radiation. It wouldn't help for CO, but I am quite sure that if someone can manage to get a hose into your tube, you can probably get a clean shot.
why bother with vacuum cleaner filters? You can get a lot of different high quality filters meant for home furnace systems. Build a box the appropriate size out of off the shelf furnace ducting seal it up real well and then just pipe your air intake in and out of it. A trip to home depot will net you all of the pieces you'd need and shouldn't cost too much.
Filtering is pretty easy. Blast valves are something I haven't figured out how to do cheaply at this point. _________________ shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:15 am Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
roccman wrote:
Thanks Steam for the new info...
the tube has spent almost a year in the ground - has been as cold as 60 and as warm as 82 (on a 115 day).
Air is very thin - I need to get the vent fan hooked up.
Sounds like a minor technical difficulty that a solar powered fan and some tubing could solve. Or just a tall tube attached to something in the area. One tall tube with an opening in the wind could help suction out old air...
roccman wrote:
I found a trusted site steward who is now living at this location and she has begun the garden. Have citrus and pomagranets at this location planted because it is lower in elevation.
Cool, like batman and robin!
roccman wrote:
This week we closed on a small farmlette about 2 hours north and higher of this location and will be planting colder climate trees soon - apples/pears/peaches/walnuts/almonds...garden goes in soon as well - kicking around some composting ideas now.
I think i will bury a smaller version of this on the farmlette maybe 12x8 instead of 25x8.
We are putting together a "last chance" box...it is 3x5x2...can hold some food, first aid/gun/jackets/ etc...we will bury this at a currently unidentified third location - when we are over run by zombies this will be our final destination I expect.
Nice! I don't think there are many other people here so well prepared.
roccman wrote:
Hope you and the wifey are well - thanks for the postcard...
I'm trying... I had "a little" trouble with a torn muscle and I've been using a cane for the last so many months. But I'm on top of that and I have a bit more spring in my step now. So I'm getting around, I had some fun making pottery with Narz last week...
Joined: Apr 27, 2007 Posts: 4262 Location: The Great Sonoran Desert
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
Wow Steam...
My apologies - this is way late.
Just goes to show - beating down zombies is a full time job.
I saw the 8th wonder on another thread...completely inspired me to get moving on my creation...maybe not the 9th wonder, but to have a better garden this season than the last 4.
MY GF and I picked up trees a few days ago...what we put together is that nuts, figs, and citrus we will grow at the site with the "tube" and apples, pears, cherries, and peaches at the farmlette because it is at a higher elevations.
We thought of using the "road" i got stranded on in the mountains and had my "walkabout" in august as a trade route between the two sites with LLama.
WRT the air in the tube...I have a 12 foot 6 inch steel vent that attaches on the vent hole on one side of the tube ...and as you mentioned it was designed to suck air out.
Right now I do not have it installed because I do not live at the site year round and want it completely buttoned up...I put a small boulder on the vent opening and buried it so no-one knows where it is at...I will dig it up and put it on once I move out of Phoenix permanently...maybe in 6 months or so.
Keep well- say hi to the misses. _________________ "There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
"... hope is a rotten-thighed whore" Niko Kazantzakis
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
Just some more thoughts on this whole bunkerplan...
I agree with some that a bunker in any form without 2 exits is a deadtrap. Also the airsupply must be better regulated and have two or three options. The moistproblem that would start off as soon as you get in the bunker should be solved. Good venting is necessary.
What worries me is the violant state of mind some of you clearly show here. I think the very fact that Americans are just raised with guns, with violance and a lot of other bullshit makes a culture of violant people. I am pretty sure that brings nothing and has no point. Americans only stand a chance when they change their culture of violance and agression radically. Its like an entire country on a state of chronic insanity. No wonder things will go totally out of hand when food is running out, fuel is unavailable and people loose access to their money and cars to get themselves in safety.
Frankly, I think we are all in a lot of trouble, thanks to US commander in chief, the alcoholic warcriminal G.W. Bush, but most Americans have the least chance of survival due to their culture and ideology.
Joined: Dec 02, 2007 Posts: 80 Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:13 am Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
I have been considering the "underground whatever you want to call it" option as part of my long term plan for a while. It's near the bottom of my list right now simply because of where I live.
I considered a more modular option of a sea container. I currently own one above ground. It's made of Cordon steel, water proof, and airtight when the door is closed. It's designed for sea travel so the time it will take to rust out will be quite significant. Without any current knowledge I am sure I can learn what it would take to seal the outer layer to make it more resistant to being in the ground. Dimensions of a 20 footer are 8'x8'x20'. Lots of room for pretty much anything you can think of. Cost was $3000.00 before taxes so I guess after excavation and concrete it would probably come out close to the figure for the "tube," maybe a little less.
Joined: Apr 17, 2005 Posts: 2680 Location: Vancouver Island
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
sea containers are strong at the corners but will collapse on the sides and top if you try and bury them. You'll need to do something to brace those sides and that will rapidly increase the costs. _________________ shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
The Mini Tube
This goes along with my earlier links on miniature root cellars for gardens...
Quote:
The Food Torpedo (Waterproof PVC Tube)
The principle of the "Torpedo" is a relatively simple one and is
adaptable to many storage uses from food, to storage of
documents, money, priceless photos, and valuables of all kinds.
The torpedo principle is limited only by your own imagination...
...Many years ago, when imaging my "Backyard Survival" plans, two
questions arose. The first was security: What happens if someone
comes along and steals all your food?
6" diameter Schedule 40 P.V.C (which is very thick) and cut it into 4
ft. lengths. This can be adapted as a food storage container (as
the diagram illustrates). Using rubber caps (called "J" caps), which
come supplied with a steel band, the unit can be secured to be both
water and insect proof. I tested mine in a swimming pool.
...In my book I tell the story of how many years after the London
bombing had stopped, the piles of rubble were finally cleared away
to make room for new houses. As the bulldozers worked clearing
the site of each once standing house, the people who had lived
there flocked like birds. As soon as they were able, they pulled
containers of all kinds (glass jars, tin boxes, etc.) from the ground.
Each was recovered with precious contents intact. In many cases,
pictures of sons and daughters lost in combat, family heirlooms,
important records, and other family treasures that would have been
lost in the mass destruction were saved because they were kept
underground all those years, the hiding place known only to the
person who buried such treasures.
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
Quote:
The Pallet Root Cellar
That's it. You are now the proud owner of your own "Root cellar" full of
food. If you are careful in packing the items, you should have many
months of food down there. This item is good for most natural
disasters (except, obviously, floods) and as can be readily
appreciated. Even if the house is flat, your food is still there waiting to
be used. I am sure many of you have already envisioned many "Root
cellars" all over the yard, some with food, some water, or clothes or?
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4071 Location: Graceland
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
steam_cannon, thanks for linking to this excellent thread.
On the subject of oxygen in the tube, this thought occurred to me for a good ventilation method.
You may have seen these roof-mounted solar-powered attic ventilation fans.
I am thinking you could put one of these at the end of a ventilation exhaust line that starts at one end of the tube and have a ventilation intake line at the other end of the shelter. You could close both lines if necessary, and have an alternate small fresh air line connected to the exhaust line so that the exhaust fan wouldn't be sucking on the interior air if the shelter intake line were closed.
This would be a pretty easy passive way of getting good ventilation at all times (when there is sun anyway). It would make sense to keep a small fan in the shelter as well in the event that the the solar fan stopped working. The solar fan would make a target, unless perhaps it was placed on the roof of the dwelling or a nearby outbuilding and the exhaust line was run inside the wall of the structure.
I am also thinking that this kind of ventilation might actually be most useful when you are NOT using the shelter, to prevent musty smells, accumulations of moisture, and that sort of thing (unless the ventilation method would raise the temperature of the air in the shelter above the desired level for the root cellar.
You know what, come to think of it, I wonder if you couldn't rig this ventilation setup to also provide a kind of low volume passive air exchanger between the interior of the above-ground dwelling and the interior of the shelter to help the HVAC system of the dwelling not work quite so hard during the day.
That might be a nice setup, especially since the hard work of digging the hole has already been done. _________________
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
BigTex wrote:
You may have seen these roof-mounted solar-powered attic ventilation fans.
Solar-powered attic fans are a great idea. Though I think he's given
this all some thought and is going with a vent tube or something to
just let the wind do the work.
BigTex wrote:
You know what, come to think of it, I wonder if you couldn't rig this
ventilation setup to also provide a kind of low volume passive air
exchanger between the interior of the above-ground dwelling and
the interior of the shelter to help the HVAC system of the dwelling
not work quite so hard during the day.
Regarding in cooling a building. He would probably want to limit
the amount of air going though his storage tube to keep condensation
to a minimum, so it probably wouldn't be a good idea. But similar
things have been done before.
Quote:
earth cooling tube
Also known as an earth tube, a long, underground metal or plastic
pipe through which air is drawn. As air travels through the pipe it
gives up some of its heat to the soil, and enters the house as cooler air.
Potential problems
Earth cooling tubes are likely to perform poorly in hot, humid areas,
because the ground does not remain sufficiently cool at a
reasonable depth during the summer months. Moreover,
dehumidification, another equally important aspect of cooling, is
difficult to achieve with earth cooling. Mechanical dehumidifiers will
most likely be necessary.
The dark and humid atmosphere of the cooling tubes may be a
breeding ground for odor-producing molds and fungi. Furthermore,
condensation or ground water seepage may accumulate in the
tubes and encourage the growth of bacteria. Good construction and
drainage could eliminate some of these problems.
It's a good idea, but a simpler concept is if you're too hot or too
cold, sit in the root cellar instead of trying to pump the cave warm
air into a house. It's so easy even a caveman can do it!
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3428 Location: California, USA
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
Re. air filtration: Most furnace filters are not sufficient because they allow too much fine particulate matter to pass. If you can get furnace filters that are HEPA rated, those will be OK.
Putting the air intakes in the dwelling is an excellent idea from a security standpoint. Minimizes the risk that attackers would be able to find them and release poisonous gas into them. And you could have a tunnel back into the dwelling to enable people to take shifts on watch duty.
Come to think of it, a more diversified air intake system is probably a good idea. If the house catches fire, you want a safe external air intake (hide it in a tree stump or among a cluster of boulders?). Different preps for different threats.
Joined: Apr 27, 2007 Posts: 4262 Location: The Great Sonoran Desert
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
Tube II in the ground as of last week...
Extensions...
5' shorter than Tube I, but buried deeper... _________________ "There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
"... hope is a rotten-thighed whore" Niko Kazantzakis
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4071 Location: Graceland
Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: A simple bunker idea..."the tube"
So Rocc, are you eating again now?
How was the fast?
***
On the subject of underground chambers, for anyone interested the tunnels of the Cu Chi region of Vietnan used during the war are fascinating to read about. The way they hid the entrances, the way they got rid of the dirt, it's interesting how they put together the whole network.
I read a book about them in high school and still remember a lot of the images of Vietnamese women carrying coffee cans of dirt long distances from the dig sites to prevent any clues to give away the digging.
I took a look at the site that buries the buses for shelters (VERY nice, BTW), and that got me to thinking about using an old cargo van in the same manner. You could pick one of those up pretty cheap and use it as a shell. Due to the shape I think you would have to use some stout internal support, but I would think that if you placed some vertical cedar 4x4s inside that ought to give you plenty of support (I don't know if additional horizontal support would be needed).
Is there a simple way to dehumidify the air and collect the moisture in a way that it can be used?
Rocc, very nice work. I assume you looked at the fiberglass shelters. What kept you away from those? Cost? Something else? _________________
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