How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:11 am Post subject: Peak Oil Techno Fix!
I knew the title would get you doomers going but the EOR technique looks like it could substantially change the picture of oil depletion.
Essentially it is a firewall recovery technique that can increase the ratio of total oil in place (TOIP) recovered from its current level of 30-50% to 70-80%.
In theory, this could increase the world URR from 2-2.5 trillion barrels to circa 4-7 trillion barrels. It is not dependant on water, gas or any other constraining input and is costing only $8-9 dollars a barrel to lift.
In reality, the system would need to be designed for each field and scalability and time will mean it is unlikely to prevent peak oil, it does, however, look like it could be another tool for managing or stabilizing the decline.
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil Techno Fix!
Go to the Toe to Heel Air Injection (THAI) discussion on theoildrum. Look for Fractional_Flow's comments on air breakthrough and bypass. There is no way to ensure the pumped-in fresh air actually combusts the heavy crude and does not just go up the toe and out the heel instead of the liquified crude. What keeps the fire burning toward the heel and not straight up or sideways or backward. Or creating a bitumen plug?
Then page down to the bottom of the comments. Look for me: ANewLand, and respond there or here to my simple question. What makes you or anyone think that this ludicrously energy intensive process actually has a positive energy return. This is the most energy expensive kind of tertiary recovery and entails new verticals, new horizontals at very small intervals. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil Techno Fix!
I'm not a Petroleum Engineer so I can't comment on the potential issues. All I can say is the test wells are working - it is not some 'in the lab' idea as the previous poster suggested. The consensus from the experts in the comment section seems to be that there are potential unsolved issues but they might not be a problem and if they are they could be resolvable.
In regards to EROEI, the cost of $8-9 would be a good indicator. That’s cheaper than much of the deep water oil currently in production. As energy input is a major portion of cost, the relatively economical extraction cost would indicate a favorable EROEI.
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil Techno Fix!
mkwin wrote:
I'm not a Petroleum Engineer so I can't comment on the potential issues. All I can say is the test wells are working - it is not some 'in the lab' idea as the previous poster suggested. The consensus from the experts in the comment section seems to be that there are potential unsolved issues but they might not be a problem and if they are they could be resolvable.
In regards to EROEI, the cost of $8-9 would be a good indicator. That’s cheaper than much of the deep water oil currently in production. As energy input is a major portion of cost, the relatively economical extraction cost would indicate a favorable EROEI.
Mkwin, cost is not a measure of eroei. It reflects market forces and in this case current money subsidies (investors, stockholder, government) and energy subsidies (current cheap petroleum, abundant natural gas, dirty coal) that fuel the process. I have little hope THAI will not stand on its own. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Joined: Oct 11, 2005 Posts: 407 Location: Arizona, USA
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil Techno Fix!
I thought peak oil was about production rates. I can't seem to find where it says that production rates will be increased along with URR, which is the only thing that will fix peak oil...by definition.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:52 am Post subject: Re: Peak Oil Techno Fix!
Windmills wrote:
I thought peak oil was about production rates. I can't seem to find where it says that production rates will be increased along with URR, which is the only thing that will fix peak oil...by definition.
Ironically, the production flow rates from this method could be too fast. The firewall forces the oil out in a small amount of time. If this was implemented on a massive scale, it could crash the oil market and destroy the alternative fuel market - that is my major concern.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil Techno Fix!
mkwin wrote:
Ironically, the production flow rates from this method could be too fast. The firewall forces the oil out in a small amount of time. If this was implemented on a massive scale, it could crash the oil market and destroy the alternative fuel market - that is my major concern.
Very good point! I agree, like in the 1970's if oil prices crash again renewable technologies will take a big hit. But there is also the possibility that the danger of global warming will influence banks and other large interest groups to soften this blow. And if this technology only slowed the production slide, it could still offer the opportunity for a smoother transition to renewables.
Also the articles about their technology really is just a great read! So far the test wells seem to be working above expectations and their studies suggest this method could be used to extract improved quality petroleum from dead oil fields. It is absolutely incredible and perhaps could alter the timing of peak oil. The question is really will this technology succeed in other fields, will it be implemented on large scale and what's the EROEI look like. The EROEI might not be that bad though since few pumps are not needed and like combustion in a jet engine this should be a fairly efficient way to repressurize a reservoir.
If it looks very interesting and if it gets implemented quickly, this could change a lot of things. What ever happens, it's a very good article and definitely something to keep an eye on!
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3325 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Peak Oil Techno Fix!
This method is VERY reminiscent of the scheme to retreive shale oil I read about in the February 1981 Special Edition National Geographic Magazine. The oil company proposal back then was to tunnel under a large block of oil shale, fracture the block into gravle sized rubble with high explosives, and then inject air and ignite the top of the block burning down vertically to upgrade the kerogen and produce from the bottom through horizontal wells.
Looking for the issue online I found this copy on Ebay Wish it was availible on Project Gutenberg instead!
edit: fixed date to Feb 1981! _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3325 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Peak Oil Techno Fix!
mkwin wrote:
The technique does work. The article documents experimental wells that have exceeded expectations.
Whether it is feasible for wide scale use is unknown at this time.
I wonder if you could use the same techniquie to coke thin coal seems underground? Seems that are too deep and thin to be worth recovering any other way, say a 3 foot band at 1000 feet down. You would drill the horizontal well as before, inject flaming air and then once the fire was going strong cut the air with about 50% steam. The coal in theory would turn to coke and release lots of methane, ethane, amonia, kerosene, CO and H2, plus water vapor and CO2. It might be cost effective, depends on how well it would work. _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:53 am Post subject: Re: Peak Oil Techno Fix!
Tanada wrote:
mkwin wrote:
The technique does work. The article documents experimental wells that have exceeded expectations.
Whether it is feasible for wide scale use is unknown at this time.
I wonder if you could use the same technique to coke thin coal seems underground? Seems that are too deep and thin to be worth recovering any other way, say a 3 foot band at 1000 feet down. You would drill the horizontal well as before, inject flaming air and then once the fire was going strong cut the air with about 50% steam. The coal in theory would turn to coke and release lots of methane, ethane, amonia, kerosene, CO and H2, plus water vapor and CO2. It might be cost effective, depends on how well it would work.
Yes that has been investigated and I think this is a technology trend that we will be hearing more about.
Here are a few links of the pros and cons
Pros:
Quote:
Underground Coal Gasification
UCG could increase the coal resource available for utilization enormously. A 300-400% increase in coal reserves and even greater increase of gasification is possible. https://eed.llnl.gov/co2/11.php
This technology would represent a clear breakthrough, notably because it would produce pre-
upgraded products of higher value than bitumen. However, the technology poses substantial risks. Experiments with similar technology in underground coal gasification have resulted in accidents (U.K. Department of Trade and Industry, 2003).
Coal fire started by a campfire which destroyed a town...
Quote:
Toe to Heel Air Injection (THAI)
This is a very new and experimental method that combines a vertical air injection well with a horizontal production well. The process ignites oil in the reservoir and creates a vertical wall of fire moving from the "toe" of the horizontal well toward the "heel", which burns the heavier oil components and drives the lighter components into the production well, where it is pumped out. In addition, the heat from the fire upgrades some of the heavy bitumen into lighter oil right in the formation. Historically fireflood projects have not worked out well because of difficulty in controlling the flame front and a propensity to set the producing wells on fire. However, some oil companies feel the THAI method will be more controllable and practical, and have the advantage of not requiring energy to create steam.
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ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap 
Wish it was availible on Project Gutenberg instead!
