How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:27 am Post subject: Accident and Emergency Post Peak
Seeings there is little chance of working hospitals after PO I was wondering if anyone had knowledge of how to sterilise a wound. Didn't people use fire for sterilisation in the past? (I know this has a special name but I can't remember it) Also I was wondering if anyone knew of any herbs that would be good to put on/in a wound to make it heal up faster and avoid infection.
Joined: Mar 29, 2005 Posts: 32 Location: Chicagoland
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:47 am Post subject:
Cauterization, the act of coagulating blood and destroying tissue with a hot iron or caustic agent or by freezing. _________________
"I believe totally in a capitalist system, I only wish that someone would try it."- Frank Lloyd Wright
Seeings there is little chance of working hospitals after PO
What nonsense people assume here. _________________ "By the time individuals discover that remaining resources will not be adequate for the next generation, the next generation has already been born. " David Price
Please guys, don't think of cauterizing wounds! You can cause more damage than you fix.
For small wounds, my father (a doctor) recommended washing with soap over any antiseptic. Keep pressure on the wound to make it stop bleeding.
For more serious wounds, concentrate first on making them stop bleeding, then worry about the risk of infection.
If you think the wound is very likely to get infected (for example, an animal bite or a very dirty wound), wash it well and then throw salt or sugar on the wound. Warning: salt hurts like hell. Both will make the wound take longer to heal, so it's best to use them only when you are really worried about infection.
Seeings there is little chance of working hospitals after PO
What nonsense people assume here.
Well ok then explain to me why they will still be functioning without oil.....
I think people like you who make sweeping judgements about things are dangerous. In fact sweeping judgements piss me off incredibly. So you just pissed me off big time.
To stop emergency severe blood loss, even artery bleeds, I suggest buying "quik clot." Developed by the military for battlefield first aid and can be bought on line. If none available, learn the basic methods of elevating the wound, direct pressue, or tourniquet in worst case scenario. Always treating for shock.
Second, for sterilizing wounds, washing them, first and foremost, to clean them; and then betadyne (not iodine) can be used to flush a wound (can be purchased online also). Read into the use of packing a would with either honey or sugar to can keep a wound sterile if no antibiotics are available (method used in many 3rd world countries where antibiotics are not available).
For all of us lay people, don't practice any battlefield surgery, cutting etc. Wash a wound, flush it, pack it to stop bleeding if necessary, use pressure, but don't start cutting or sewing. If nothing else, you will probably make the wound worse by cutting so much, and don't worry about sewing, if nothing else, the wound will drain infection better.
You should not only read but practice basic wound care to treat an unconscious wounded casualty. Practice applying pressue wounds to different locations on the body, practice first response to a sucking chest wound, splinting, treating for shock, opening airways, evacuating. Attend the Wilderness EMT course if possible.
I've had some basic first aid training like a lot of people here, certified EMT at one time, but a few personal experiences along the way have shown me my lack of ability. For example, an accidental discharge of a round shot a guys nose off in front of me (thankfully didn't go into the skull, but went side to side blowing his nose completely off - how do you pressure treat that one? Answer is, you don't pressue treat a head wound). I was unfortunately present during two separate bike accidents where my brother broke his hip and femur each time. Needless to say, we don't mountain bike anymore or road race, but the point is, treatment is very difficult when you are emotionally involved and when the injuries are so serious). I've had to help evac a casualty with a fractured neck from the woods, and moving a person with a broken neck down a hill and through the woods to a helicopter extraction point is physically demanding.
Stock up on some basic medical supplies, like betadyne, sugardyne, iodine, alcohol, guaze, tape, bandages, baking soda (toothpaste), basic meds.
Hopefully, smallpox will jump in here.
Last edited by seahorse2 on Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:20 am; edited 1 time in total
Well, I do think that hospitals are likely to be still functioning after the peak. I don't necessarily expect them to be doing things like transplants, though.
The reason I think this is because health care is about one of the last things that people will give up. My father always said that 80% of medicine is cheap, 20% is high tech. I would expect then that 80% of medicine will survive.
Still, knowing what to do in an emergency is useful if transport to the hospital takes longer than it used to.
Hospitals existed before electricity and oil. There's no reason to think they'll become extinct without either or both. It'll take you longer to get there if you can't drive. And they may not have all the state-of-the-art equipment and drugs we have today. But they'll still exist at a basic level that they did a century or two ago.
Joined: Jul 18, 2004 Posts: 198 Location: S. Yorkshire, UK
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:37 am Post subject:
The real big cost in medicine is human labour (skilled and semi-skilled). Then it's drugs - mainly those taken for long-term conditions (diabetes, heart disease, following transplant) or specialist drugs for heroic treatment of severe illness (cancer, leukaemia).
For most 'acute' medicine, the majority of drugs (tylenol, penicillin) are cheap - costing a few pennies for a course of treatment. Or where more expensive, only need to be given as a one off or short course.
Equipment and sterile supplies are not expensive. Nor difficult to set up. Sterilisation has been around for many years - you can boil equipment in a pressure cooker, or soak it in alcohol and burn it off. If you're a manufacturer or a hospital, you can get radiation sterilisers - they don't need a lot of maintenance, a little bit of lubrication on the hinges to make sure the lead shields can move easily - their RA source is good for decades too.
For basic first aid, the best advice is to keep wounds clean. This means a thorough wash with warm water and optionally a little mild neutral detergent. The most important thing is to remove ay foreign material that you can - and that means using a soft scrubbing brush (like a toothbrush) or water jet if necessary. Then just some clean dressings - clean cotton would be fine - which are regularly changed should be fine.
If in doubt, it's always safer to leave a wound open, then to start stitching it up. Aside from avoiding a difficult job, closing a wound can trap infection. So wounds that are very dirty, or likely to be infected (human or animal bites) should never be stitched. Packing such a wound with a sterile dressing to keep it open is the best practice.
As said earlier, if there is a severe wound with severe active bleeding, then it's more important to stop the bleeding first. Again simple things first - elevation and pressure are more important than digging around trying to find an artery.
If you want to practice first aid then there are plenty of good books available, which will give a better description than I can - with illustrations to.
I'll have to agree with MarkR. Unless we have some cataclysmic collapse, hospitals and health care will still be around. With proper preparation basic disease preventing and lifesaving practices could be sustained for a long time. Sure, the expensive and intensive life-saving or maintaining equipment may not be usable or manufactured, but most care is pretty basic. And just because we will face an energy decline doesn't mean we will unlearn medical knowledge.
My guess is that health care will become more accessible and more basic in the future. I say this because healthcare will have to become more preventative and wide ranging to maintain a healthy population. Plus while I don't expect a collapse of healthcare I do believe the healthcare-related financial system WILL collapse, along with the greater economy. Assuming the sucessful transition to a localized non-growth based economy, health care will have to be made part of that, probably rationed to all and refocused on preventative and simple care first before anything else.
If there is one country on this planet that seems to have it right, it probably is Cuba. They have a well trained and functioning health care system. Not glamorous, not heroic and certainly not complex. But what are the results...average lifespan higher than the Latin American average and an overall better health of the population. _________________ UNplanning the future...
http://unplanning.blogspot.com
[quote="Doly"]Please guys, don't think of cauterizing wounds! You can cause more damage than you fix.
Very important. I've heard a story about a guy at my school who tried this. He was trying to be tough and after cutting his hand on glass, he burnt it with a lighter to "coterize it". He went to the hospital for stitches and 3rd degree burns. I think it's really funny. But more importantly, in the literature I've read (purely fictional) I see that that kind of treatment is mostly for amputees. Stopping bleeding and reducing infection would be top priority. I'm planning on getting some serious first aide books, you should do the same.
Second, for sterilizing wounds, washing them, first and foremost, to clean them; and then betadyne (not iodine) can be used to flush a wound (can be purchased online also).
I would avoid putting straight iodine in a wound. Best option for cleansing a wound is to irrigate thouraghly with sterile saline or chlorinated tap water. Don't be a wimp about it. You really need to wash it out well. Use a liter or two of water. If your tap water doesn't have chlorine, you can use 8-10 drops of betadine per liter in clean water. Pure betadine is too strong and kills your cells. Dead cells are a bacteria buffet. Wound nurses are the gurus of healing wounds. One of them taught me that their current mantra is "Don't put anything in a wound that you wouldn't put in your eye."
seahorse2 wrote:
For all of us lay people, don't practice any battlefield surgery, cutting etc. Wash a wound, flush it, pack it to stop bleeding if necessary, use pressure, but don't start cutting or sewing. If nothing else, you will probably make the wound worse by cutting so much, and don't worry about sewing, if nothing else, the wound will drain infection better.
Well said. Main things are to keep the wound clean and protect it from getting scraped, mashed, etc. Do those things and it will heal.
As for bleeding, almost all bleeding will stop with direct pressure, and patience. I haven't had an opportunity to use Quick Clot, but it seems like a good deal for really bad hemoraging wounds. For smaller wounds with excessive bleeding, there is a Chinese pattent herbal called Yunan Paio (you-nan pie-oww) that is really good. Just sprinkle a bit in the wound then apply direct pressure. Can be obtained for a dollar or two from any place that sells chinese pattent herbals(Say it. Don't try to spell it. They write it with the Chinese characters.) Reportedly saw extensive use by the Viet Cong in Vietnam. Some people use Yarrow root powder for the same thing. Haven't had an opportunity to try that myself.
Couple of good options for learning more about DIY medical care. If you can find a "street medic" training in your area, they are very good (often done in the days leading up to large protests). Also Wilderness First Responder Courses are very good. Red Cross courses are not without benefit, but tend to teach a bit too much dependence on the medical system IMHO.
Aira wrote:
Hospitals existed before electricity and oil
Might want to research that history a bit. Hospitals didn't really come to the forefront as centers for treating people until the 1920's and 30's. Before that they were mostly just about quarantining people with infectious diseases and housing the mentally ill.
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