Salt water can indeed burn when exposed to a certain kind of radio wave, a university chemist has confirmed.
Rustum Roy of Pennsylvania State University verified earlier this month that the radio waves break the water into its components, allowing the resulting freed hydrogen and oxygen to catch fire.
Independent scientists said the phenomenon is credible as explained, though practical applications of the technology remain uncertain and it's unlikely to be a source of cheap energy.
"It seems like, to me, an interesting set of processes that's been uncovered," said George Sverdrup, a technology manager at the Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) in Golden, Colorado.
"That doesn't say much for its applicability or any possibility for the marketplace, though, at this point."
Quote:
NREL's Sverdrup said scientists will need to evaluate the energy costs of the process. Energy is required to bind salt water's chemical bonds and water molecules, he noted.
"If hydrogen and oxygen are liberated, sufficient energy to break those chemical bonds has to be put into that system," he explained.
That energy "presumably" comes from the radio frequency generator, he added.
Daniel Kammen directs the Renewable and Appropriate Energy Laboratory at the University of California at Berkeley. While he remains skeptical about the phenomenon as an energy source, he said, "it sure would be neat if true."
Quote:
For now, the most immediate potential technology application is desalination—the process of removing salt from water—because the water formed after combustion is free of salt and other contaminants.
"It's really a miraculous process: water-breakup-water," Roy said.
Further Research
Brent Haddad directs the Center for Integrated Water Research at the University of California, Santa Cruz.
He commented in an email that the "research is located in the right place: at the nexus of energy production and water treatment. But it is too early to tell what the practical applications will be."
Roy met Monday with officials from the U.S. departments of defense and energy to discuss the discovery and seek research funding.
He said entrepreneurs from all over the world are also contacting him via email.
"They are all saying, Holy cow, everything has changed."
***EMPHASIS MINE!***
And so, as another batch of unworthy debate opponents is flushed down the Carlhole, I command you all to pay close attention to whatever I say on these forums for I am now a PO.COM EXPERT!!
...Kanzius's lab demonstration offered little to convince me otherwise. Sure, a test tube of pure water sat there in his radio-wave gizmo with nothing happening, then a quarter teaspoon of Morton's salt was added and, presto, the radio waves prompted it to catch fire. The gauge on the radio-wave generator read 200 watts, but there was no telling how much heat was coming off the flame or how much power was coming out of the wall, so I had no way of knowing whether this was an energy-losing parlor trick or a breakthrough.
Then I contacted Dr. Rustum Roy, an authority on the structure of liquid water at Penn State University, which houses one of the foremost microwave research labs. He hadn't met Kanzius, but his enthusiasm for the concept was palpable. No hard research has been conducted as yet -- it's only been a few months since the water first caught fire -- but Dr. Roy speculates that because the 13.56-MHz radio frequency is a harmonic of the natural frequency of sodium ions, the waves are causing these positive ions to vibrate intensely. Van der Waal's effects attract the oxygen end of water molecules to the positive sodium ions, and the vibration shakes the oxygen molecules hard enough to break the hydrogen bonds, freeing the hydrogen gas, which then ignites and burns. If true, the radio waves may be giving us electrolysis at a deep energy discount, allowing the flame to produce a net energy gain without breaking any thermodynamic laws...
An article describing the treatment using Kanzius' generator was first published late Tuesday in the online version of the Cancer Society's journal, Cancer.
The evidence, published as a collaborative article from 11 researchers, indicates that Kanzius' radio-wave treatment completely killed liver tumor cells in test rabbits with no side effects.
"We must be careful with terminology; in liver tumor models, we were successful," said Dr. Steven A. Curley, of the University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. "It means we're getting pushed farther ahead as rapidly as possible."
Curley said tumors in rabbits that were treated with only radio waves remained alive, while those injected with only nanoparticles also had no change in condition. Treatment using both radio waves and nanoparticles was successful...
This is the application that Kanzius had intended for his radio-wave device.
Kanzius acccidentally discovered that saltwater would release hydrogen and burn when in the field of radio waves. This was an entirely new phenomenon in physics to my knowledge. And it created a buzz amongst scientists, energy entrepreneurs and other interested people.
It seems that this method of releasing hydrogen from it's bond with oxygen is a whole lot more efficient than electrolysis - which is very significant, I think.
But it only seems to have earned contempt for not being an energy source here at PO.com. _________________ "May you live in interesting times"
Joined: Jul 17, 2004 Posts: 486 Location: Amerika (most of the time)
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:07 am Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source?
Carlhole wrote:
It seems that this method of releasing hydrogen from it's bond with oxygen is a whole lot more efficient than electrolysis - which is very significant, I think.
But it only seems to have earned contempt for not being an energy source here at PO.com.
I think this invention is pretty damn cool and hope that this can lead to something. The only thing I have a problem with is that I don't think this you are splitting water here. The reason I say that is because from all of the reports that I have read, only saltwater "burns" and not pure water. (I could be wrong though). This suggests to me that the sodium ions present in solution are playing an integral role in the burning. Either way this whole process is a scientists wet dream. Keep posting more info about this. _________________ Simon's Law: Everything put together falls apart sooner or later.
I don't think of all the misery, but of all the beauty that still remains.--Anne Frank
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source?
mididoctors said:
Quote:
we all get one.... with my ration of infinite energy I'm going to re-run every possible quantum option from the big bang onwards, raise the dead and promote myself to god.....
Lord, let’s hope it’s not true, or we will be having a lot of the above god creation phenomenon going on! But, probably someone will melt the world down into a great big Cheese Witz ball before we get any gods produced.
...What John surmised was the salt water in the test tube was the actual splitting of the covalent bond between oxygen and the hydrogen brothers. The resulting mix of oxygen and hydrogen gas released into the air from the salt water was then ignited by wick’s naked flame. Another effect was the more John increased the strength of the EFG waves the hotter the flame became, and he clocked it in at the limits of his machines capability at over 1,647 degrees centigrade. Now fair enough, the power required to push the EFG wave strength to induce this temperature was considerable and far exceeded the actual energy output of the flame. But it opens up a whole new realm of possibilities for the investigation of this effect.
One of those possibilities is fine tuning the EFG to be able to disrupt the very atomic bonds within an atom. If this can be achieved then we have the keys to unlocking the power within an atom (we all know how powerful the atom can be if it split aka Nuclear reactors and Nuclear Bombs), in a safer more controlled manner. This could be the beginning of a new possibly clean or at least cleaner than current energy sources. And that is worth independent investigation, research and experimentation on a global open platform. So I say well done Mr John Kanzius you have given the world hope in two major fields that are present issues of major concern, but lets all be careful and not experience a repeat of Tesla, Klein, Rife or Meyer. Together slowly, surely and steadily with crucial knowledge shared, we can perhaps stem the rising tides and change the world for the better.
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source?
15 years ago I knew of a project to use 11MHZ or so to kill cancer cells by causing them to ring themselves to death at resonance. I understand that a good singer can reproduce the resonant note of a crystal goblet and do the same, but I am skeptical for several reasons.
1. Cancer cells are not standardized in size and structure to my
knowledge (which I admit is limited.)
<for the hydrogen producing part of the technology>
2. So far as creating hydrogen and oxygen from water:
Would the water have to just pure water and sodium salt
for the resonance to be useful and predictable?
Would this preclude sea water which has many different
chemical salts as a mixture?
3. Is there any hope of a net energy production when the input
power is measured and deducted from the output power?
I am very impressed by the work of Mr. Kanzius but very wary of people twisting it to become a major contribution of energy.
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source?
efarmer wrote:
15 years ago I knew of a project to use 11MHZ or so to kill cancer cells by causing them to ring themselves to death at resonance. I understand that a good singer can reproduce the resonant note of a crystal goblet and do the same, but I am skeptical for several reasons.
1. Cancer cells are not standardized in size and structure to my knowledge (which I admit is limited.)
You are probably thinking of Rife - a charlatan who supposedly had a cancer-curing machine of some sort.
Kanzius' method uses gold (or some other metal) nanoparticles in conjunction with radio waves. The idea is to first get the gold nanoparticles delivered selectively to cancer cells. It has already been proven effective against cancer IF the nanoparticles are present within the cancer cells. Getting the nanoparticles into the cancer cells selectively is the big challenge but some very credible researchers think it's doable.
From the IWH article in my previous post:
Quote:
Enter Richard Smalley, Nanotechnology pioneer and creator of the Buckyball, who heard about John’s idea in 2005. Richard proposed to John that perhaps constructed carbon nanotubes might by what he was looking for. This sent John on the path of nanoparticles and eventually to the door of the M. D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston (ACC). This is where he met Dr. Steven A. Curley, Professor in Surgical Oncology who enthusiastically embraced the idea and started a preliminary research programme investigating the use of the RFG combined with nanoparticles.
Quote:
...Though there still hangs the question of true targeting this is being worked on a furious pace. Steven is looking at a targeting molecule called Erbitux (aka: c255, Cetuximab), which is a chimerical monoclonal antibody that has the ability to bind to specific substances. If Erbitux can be modified to adhere to cancer cells and are themselves carrying the gold nano-particles. This would effectively target the cancer cells, and thus allow the RFG to vaporise them alone and leave the rest of the body unharmed.
efarmer wrote:
2. So far as creating hydrogen and oxygen from water:
Would the water have to just pure water and sodium salt
for the resonance to be useful and predictable?
Would this preclude sea water which has many different
chemical salts as a mixture?
If you go back to the very first post in this thread, you'll see a link to a video in which Kanzius is using seawater to create the splitting of hydrogen from oxygen effect. His set up actually runs a small engine off the flame in the video. I don't think the effect occurs without the addition of salt. I haven't heard any detailed explanation of this phenomenon. It is amazing that this is only being discovered now rather than, say, 60 or 80 years ago.
efarmer wrote:
3. Is there any hope of a net energy production when the input
power is measured and deducted from the output power?
No, because that would be creating energy out of thin air. But it IS possible that this entirely new effect in physics could split hydrogen from oxygen much more efficiently than electrolysis does.
I am most curious about this. And a whole lot of entrepreneurs around the world are interested in this question as well because it could lead to some significant energy-related applications. _________________ "May you live in interesting times"
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: John Kanzius' Salt Water-Radio Wave Energy Source?
Thanks for a splendid answer, especially on the tagging aspect which is of course well proven for isotope imaging and treating of cancers. The energy aspect of this may well be conservation of that very precious energy, human life. I sure do enjoy it when reality beats my skepticism silly.
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