For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Joined: Oct 16, 2005 Posts: 227 Location: Australia
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Why is negativity important to you?
This question is analogous to the "Doomer" versus "Realist" argument. I don't believe I'm a negative person but I often get called that by people that want to dismiss my view of the future. There should be a distinction between factual based critical thinking, cynicsim and outright negativity by the emotional response. Sometimes the truth hurts and that hurt is often wrongly interpreted as negativity. Cognitive dissonance condures powerful emotions in most people. It can produce anger and even violence in some.
People that label me as negative make me consider them as having low emotional IQ , especially when I know I am being honest and gracious. It's true that if you tell an emotionally imature fat person they're fat, they'll usually confuse ungracious with negative. I have a fairly dark and dry sense of humor so that combined with a "tell it like it is" attitude can have negative consequences.
I'm an engineer and I'm trained to practice robust design. A big part of that process is discovering and understanding all the problems so that the appropriate solutions can be included in the design. For me, when the glass is greater than 50% it's half full and when the glass is less than 50% it's time to get another beer.
I have a "expect the worst and hope for the best" mindset. So when I realised what Peak Oil means I dug in reeeaally deep. Technology used to be my god so you can imagine the grieving I've been through and still going through since I took the red pill.
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Why is negativity important to you?
JPL wrote:
Matt Savinar's 'LATOC' thesis, for example, is basically a deconstruction of modern (Anglo-American) society, so is James Kunsler's various writings.
I don't think those two are being negative just to be negative.
They're simply looking reality in the eye and having the guts to speak about things as they honestly see them. All the "positive" cum-by-ya singing in the world isn't going to change a thing regarding GW, PO, fiat currency, etc, etc.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11991 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Why is negativity important to you?
bshirt wrote:
JPL wrote:
Matt Savinar's 'LATOC' thesis, for example, is basically a deconstruction of modern (Anglo-American) society, so is James Kunsler's various writings.
I don't think those two are being negative just to be negative.
They're simply looking reality in the eye and having the guts to speak about things as they honestly see them. All the "positive" cum-by-ya singing in the world isn't going to change a thing regarding GW, PO, fiat currency, etc, etc.
What's the benefit though, in repeatedly pointing out the bad stuff, and not the good stuff? That's what I'm trying to get at here, what is the benefit derived from saying "we're screwed!" constantly?
Does it enable people to take action better? But how can they take action if action is seen as "positive" or "optimistic"? (Like, for instance, a lot of the things that I post about, in my "positivity") For me, reading "we're screwed and there's nothing we can do!" doesn't encourage me to action, it encourages me to sit down and cry. In a way, I see it as a self-fullfilling prophecy, because if one keeps saying "blah blah isn't going to change a thing regarding GW, PO, fiat currency, etc etc etc" then people surely aren't going to take the actions that could mitigate those problems, because they will be convinced nothing can change this inevitable doom. See what I'm saying? That's just my point of view though, others may see great benefit in saying repeatedly "we're screwed and nothing can change" though, I'm not sure what that benefit is...
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11991 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Why is negativity important to you?
Heineken wrote:
My worldview is increasingly negative because facts and events seem to increasingly validate that attitude. I could be wrong, but that is my perception.
Here's where we're very different, you and I. Though we both agree we're screwed, you dwell on that and post about it a lot, whereas I don't dwell on it and try not to post about it!
Aside from the feeling of validation, what benefit do you derive from dwelling on the negative, or at least what benefit do you derive from posting about it a lot here? Besides the sort of validation of your worldview you get from other people here, what benefit do you get, or hope to bestow, by dwelling on negative things?
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1142 Location: Last outpost of Civilisation
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Why is negativity important to you?
bshirt wrote:
JPL wrote:
Matt Savinar's 'LATOC' thesis, for example, is basically a deconstruction of modern (Anglo-American) society, so is James Kunsler's various writings.
I don't think those two are being negative just to be negative.
They're simply looking reality in the eye and having the guts to speak about things as they honestly see them. All the "positive" cum-by-ya singing in the world isn't going to change a thing regarding GW, PO, fiat currency, etc, etc.
Deconstruction is when you start from a premise of 'all this is wrong' and then look for arguements to suit your assertion.
Joined: Nov 24, 2005 Posts: 743 Location: The ever shrinking wilds of Norway
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Why is negativity important to you?
I would say that, whereas I definitely crave for doom, it is because I see upon it as an opportunity since I've never liked this society. Of course I may die, but I have to work hard to make sure I am one of the ones that survive.
Because of that I do not post posts like: We are so Fark!, We are all gonna die! (I might have tongue in cheek) and similar.
There are always opportunity, defiatism will get you nowhere. You might die prematurely (as it's called these days), it's all about improving the odds of you and your decendants. Of course a lot of people here seems to join the "sheeple" in being in love with the dulling gadgets and comforts of our present lifestyle. I think you need to release yourself from that path of thought.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6141 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Why is negativity important to you?
Ludi wrote:
Heineken wrote:
My worldview is increasingly negative because facts and events seem to increasingly validate that attitude. I could be wrong, but that is my perception.
Here's where we're very different, you and I. Though we both agree we're screwed, you dwell on that and post about it a lot, whereas I don't dwell on it and try not to post about it!
Aside from the feeling of validation, what benefit do you derive from dwelling on the negative, or at least what benefit do you derive from posting about it a lot here? Besides the sort of validation of your worldview you get from other people here, what benefit do you get, or hope to bestow, by dwelling on negative things?
Validation by others is a powerful benefit, Ludi. Don't discount it.
Consider what sort of website this is. Peak Oil. A deeply negative issue, for the most part. You should not be surprised to encounter extensive negative sentiment about the future here.
Overall, I think my doomer attitude is surprisingly positive, given the facts, which are almost uniformly dreadful.
To the degree that I "dwell" on negative things, perhaps I'm trying to throw cold water in my face so that I actually react to them, and take necessary steps. I think that others should do the same.
The danger of dwelling only on the positive is that it could lead to complacency and inaction.
If society were half as negative about the total situation as I am, we'd be on a completely different, and better, course. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Why is negativity important to you?
Ludi wrote:
bshirt wrote:
JPL wrote:
Matt Savinar's 'LATOC' thesis, for example, is basically a deconstruction of modern (Anglo-American) society, so is James Kunsler's various writings.
I don't think those two are being negative just to be negative.
They're simply looking reality in the eye and having the guts to speak about things as they honestly see them. All the "positive" cum-by-ya singing in the world isn't going to change a thing regarding GW, PO, fiat currency, etc, etc.
What's the benefit though, in repeatedly pointing out the bad stuff, and not the good stuff? That's what I'm trying to get at here, what is the benefit derived from saying "we're screwed!" constantly?
Does it enable people to take action better? But how can they take action if action is seen as "positive" or "optimistic"? (Like, for instance, a lot of the things that I post about, in my "positivity") For me, reading "we're screwed and there's nothing we can do!" doesn't encourage me to action, it encourages me to sit down and cry. In a way, I see it as a self-fullfilling prophecy, because if one keeps saying "blah blah isn't going to change a thing regarding GW, PO, fiat currency, etc etc etc" then people surely aren't going to take the actions that could mitigate those problems, because they will be convinced nothing can change this inevitable doom. See what I'm saying? That's just my point of view though, others may see great benefit in saying repeatedly "we're screwed and nothing can change" though, I'm not sure what that benefit is...
Well, from my point of view, three benefits I enjoy here in "negative" PO.com....
1. PO.com is not mainstream media. I greatly enjoy it here due to the honest discussion of cold, brutal facts staring all of us in the face which is 180 degrees from the fairy tale dreamland the talking heads on TV project. To me, it's a breath of fresh air.
2. Those vicious cold facts are a great, great motivator for me. Ludi, you're more than welcome to come check out my solar greenhouse (using hydroponics), wood boiler, water purification using ceramic filters with a cistern, LED supplemental lighting, etc. Not that there isn't 10,000 other things that need to be done, but it's a good start I think.
3. PO. Com is to me one of the very, very few places I know of where bullsh*t and lies don't prevail.
Wouldn't you agree that there are endless threads here that have wonderful tips and insights on everything such as gardening, trees, positive land development, permaculture, natural soil enrichment, alternative energy production (solar, wind) and so on?
Anyways, Ludi, I "do" see your point. If a person feels helpless about near future current events, then yes, it's certainly not beneficial for that person.
But there's very few posts I've seen that claim there's nothing you can do about "anything". Sure, for PO, GW, Govn policies and so on there's very little a single person can do. But if one is willing to step out of the box, the options are endless. You know that.
In summary, in this PC world, I enjoy reading posts from folks who call a spade a spade.
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3343 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Why is negativity important to you?
bshirt wrote:
1. PO.com is not mainstream media. I greatly enjoy it here due to the honest discussion of cold, brutal facts staring all of us in the face which is 180 degrees from the fairy tale dreamland the talking heads on TV project. To me, it's a breath of fresh air.
3. PO. Com is to me one of the very, very few places I know of where bullsh*t and lies don't prevail.
Wouldn't you agree that there are endless threads here that have wonderful tips and insights on everything such as gardening, trees, positive land development, permaculture, natural soil enrichment, alternative energy production (solar, wind) and so on?
But if one is willing to step out of the box, the options are endless. You know that.
In summary, in this PC world, I enjoy reading posts from folks who call a spade a spade.
Wonderfully said, bshirt!! Perfect!
The only thing *I* could add is that I learn so much here from patient and kind people-I feel as though my brain sparks to life!
Last edited by Ferretlover on Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6141 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Why is negativity important to you?
I'd like to add one other point to bshirt's bull's-eye comments. For me personally, a severely negative stance on the world's evolving condition is the honest stance. I am being true to who I am. I could try to be more positive about things, and who knows, maybe it might make me feel better, but I would be being dishonest to who and what I am, and what I feel I have learned about the world and people in my 52 years. And what I have learned is this: It's hopeless. Even if you surround yourself in a nice comfy blanket of goofy optimism, reality will penetrate relatively soon, and spear you.
As the song goes, "Life is a sham unless you can shout out, 'I am who I am'." _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Nov 28, 2004 Posts: 12000 Location: Neither Here Nor There
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Why is negativity important to you?
I thought you had something really cool going here, Heineken, until you started quoting Neil Diamond. Just pokin' at ya, but Neil Diamond? Old Guy Sings Song Of Desire To 12 Year Old Tell me you don't need a lentil frobotomy if you still enjoy this singer! heh heh.
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Why is negativity important to you?
Ludi wrote:
What's the benefit though, in repeatedly pointing out the bad stuff, and not the good stuff? That's what I'm trying to get at here, what is the benefit derived from saying "we're screwed!" constantly?
It's not so much the good versus the bad stuff, it's the world view behind it.
We bring solutions to the table based upon an obsolete way of thinking.
The benefit, is hopefully a move to an ecological paradigm in thinking; one that boasts ecological modesty and not a "fix-it"
mindset.
For any lasting solution, we must abandon these ultimately disastrous methods of thinking about the world about us. Like Catton says: "We must learn to live within carrying capacity without trying to enlarge it. We must rely on renewable resources consumed no faster than at sustained yield rates."
The real negativity is trying to foster solutions based upon a Mechanical World View.
Those days are over. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:07 pm Post subject: Re: Why is negativity important to you?
A lot of happy perky optimists are quite sensitive, and feel easily defeated. Cockeyed optimism is their defence. Noone on these forums meets this description, in my mind. I'm talking about the typical perpetually upbeat person. They shrink from the idea of looming crisis, because it completely deflates their world and their place in it. They're externally referenced and if the externals look weak, they feel weakened.
For some perverse reason, the idea that the world may be going to hell in a hand cart, generally makes me feel stronger, because I think I can get through anything short of thermo-nuclear war. By extension, I feel, all my friends and family are going to get through it too. I hope like hell this is a form of healthy narcissism, or a genuinely positve attitude. If not, I'm one sick puppy!
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