How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6368 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Project Stealth PO House
A question on the solar 2 calcs,
First, I couldn’t figure out how to get daily btus only hourly.
But second, I think you may have input the overhang too low, for one window in the center of the porch, a 3-0 x 5-0 with a 7’ head and 2’sill, and a 6’overhang at 3’ above the window head (10ft high porch ceiling) gave me 35 BTU x 100 at noon in Dec. as opposed to the 24 you noted.
A 4’ overhang got 38 BTUx100
What am I doing wrong?
I won’t argue that a shorter overhang would extend the gain into earlier and later months though…
Steel studs
I wasn’t clear SCF, I meant that contrary to common assumption though steel studs don’t burn they will fail in a fire; it does get hot here but not that hot! _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Project Stealth PO House
Pops wrote:
Steel studs
I wasn’t clear SCF, I meant that contrary to common assumption though steel studs don’t burn they will fail in a fire; it does get hot here but not that hot!
Yea that one went over my head but now I understand. I never really think of things like that because when the house is on fire to that degree, what you end up with is all landfill anyway.
I'm also puzzled that you folks down there allow a 24" stud spacing. I'm not up on the codes here but I've never seen anyone use that except in farm outbuildings. Up here, we use only 16" spacing but that could be because of snow load etc.
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1364 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Project Stealth PO House
Pops wrote:
A question on the solar 2 calcs,
First, I couldn’t figure out how to get daily btus only hourly.
I simply entered the hourly data into a spreadsheet and added it up
Pops wrote:
But second, I think you may have input the overhang too low, for one window in the center of the porch, a 3-0 x 5-0 with a 7’ head and 2’sill, and a 6’overhang at 3’ above the window head (10ft high porch ceiling) gave me 35 BTU x 100 at noon in Dec. as opposed to the 24 you noted.
A 4’ overhang got 38 BTUx100
I had 35.2 BTU x100 at Dec noon for a 3'x5' with 6.5 head and 1.5 sill, a 6' overhang with 3' offset above window, so we are getting the same values for that one. I used a 6'x3' window under a 4' overhang with the same sill height, 7.5' head, and 2' offset; I came up with 44 BTUs x100 for Dec noon. Maybe you didn't change the window size. I assumed that more solar heat would be desirable, and the overall frontal layout more aesthetically appealing than the 3 foot offset over 5' windows.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6368 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Project Stealth PO House
skyemoor wrote:
Maybe you didn't change the window size. I assumed that more solar heat would be desirable, and the overall frontal layout more aesthetically appealing than the 3 foot offset over 5' windows.
Got it!
With the shallower overhang you get less shading and so a higher window makes sense. At some point I am going to draw and elevation or isometric showing bay windows to see what Miss thinks.
Thermal storage
I like the idea of the large concrete warm water storage you mentioned. I’m wondering if it could also be made of SCFs with some type of lining and insulation under. Placed under the porch with the joist bays insulated. Lots of pressure on the sidewalls though, I’d hate to have it crack the basement wall. Guess I would need an engineer for that one, luckily I know a guy… _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1364 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Project Stealth PO House
At a local alternative energy expo, another ICF vendor was presenting their wares, Amvic Systems. The rep had just come to Amvic from working for ARXX, so I asked how their ICFs compared and he sent me this response today;
Quote:
1. Amvic is reversible, no top or bottom. This reduces the number of different blocks needed on a job site.
2. Our interlock system is 1” deep. This means Amvic locks together better and has little or no wall shrinkage (top to bottom) during concrete placement.
3. The Amvic tie system is spaced closer together giving Amvic a stronger face for less pillowing or breakage and more attachment points.
4. The rebar notches in our tie allow for contact splicing without tying. This saves time and allows for better concrete flow down through the wall. It also allows more room for proper vibration of the concrete.
5. Amvic has a slightly wider tie face making attachment of finishes easier.
6. Our packaging is better, keeping the forms cleaner and unbroken during delivery.
These are all constructability improvements. However one of the best advantages of ICF’s is its speed of construction and time saving. Smoother, flatter walls that go up faster is important in your decision.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6368 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Project Stealth PO House
So here is a new section with a 6-0 porch on the first floor with a 4-0 deep balcony and about a 5-0 roof overhang.
If we are going to spend $5k for that elevation using treated wood we might as well plan on spending $8k-$10k for composites to build those floors/rails to take the weather more than 10 years. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6368 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Project Stealth PO House
So, after a little inspiration from a movie (that she likes) I asked Miss if we could loose the second floor balcony and she thought she could.
Doing some numbers on Solar 2 and considering an 8’deep porch with the same roof overhang 19’ above the first floor, first floor window sills 2’ above floor level and head height of 8’ I get 100% window exposure all the cold months and porch shading 3-4’ from the porch wall June through most of Aug.
Of course the second floor windows never get exposure but the gain downstairs would be much more than with the balcony. Besides our bedrooms upstairs have no wall insulation, 100-year-old windows and only a little insulation in the attic and we haven’t died yet – though I will admit my nose was cold this morning.
On the cost side, though I’d need some steel to resist uplift on that big overhang (here in Tornado Alley) and the columns will certainly cost, we would eliminate the framing and finish material expense and labor for a second floor balcony and all the maintenance costs down the line. Besides, they would be ahead considering how little a balcony off one’s bedroom would be used.
I’m thinking this is a good deal… _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1364 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Project Stealth PO House
This is an interesting candidate approach. In some ways, it is a simpler design. Of course, removing the 2nd floor balcony windows from solar input reduces your passive solar input by about 40%. Ultimately, your preferences for a particular design theme and your desire for free heat will reach a balance point that you and your daughter find appealing. When I get back from the weekend, I'll take a look at how the 8' overhang shades the first floor windows in August and September.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6368 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Project Stealth PO House
skyemoor wrote:
Ultimately, your preferences for a particular design theme and your desire for free heat will reach a balance point that you and your daughter find appealing.
Exactly. The trade-off is here is more insolation to the first floor in winter, which will have hard surfaces and thermal mass on the floor - for less gain on the soft surfaces upstairs and less shading on the porch floor at noon in summer. In fact, the window heads could all be raised to 9-0 and over the front door as high as wanted since it is in the stairwell.
My thoughts are; first, winter cold is tougher and more expensive than summer heat here; solar gain downstairs in the main living areas that can be stored and radiated upwards at night is best; and finally, summer evenings on the front porch will still be nice considering the south wall provides shade and the prevailing breeze is from the SW.
The biggest downside I see (aside from the lost gain upstairs) is reflected sunlight off the front porch in summer – the south wall is in shade but the porch floor is pretty well lit til the middle of Aug. though at a pretty high incident angle. Insulated drapes or reflective blinds would probably handle the amount reflected don’t you think?
skyemoor wrote:
What is the pitch of the main roof? Will you have a different pitch for overhang?
I’m thinking a simple, single pitch roof at 12/12 at the steepest - probably less… _________________ Make a plan and work it:
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