How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
I think the places that stand the best chances in the near future are the small cities and villages of between 5 and 30,000. You can live a great life in a town like that, and find a job that will pay for you to buy a house and bring up the kids in fine style. I don't like the mega-cities of a million or more, nor is way out in the middle of nowhere a great option, unless you are given hundreds of acres of land and can farm it without having to make a mortgage payment.
Kids are adaptable. The future is green. Why not get started? Live in a small house with solar panels. Eat from local farmer's markets. Practice what we preach.
It's not the end of the world. How many generations of Finns have wrested a living from that part of the world? Teach the kids to ski jump (when they are a little older). Build a sauna.
It won't all fall in at once, and if it does you Finns will make it. _________________ Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
I have 2 children. A daughter that is nearly 26 years old and a son that just turned 1. My daughter has a son, my grandson, that is also 1.
My daughter is grown but is now a single mom raising her son. I'll have limited, grandfathter influence on this boy.
My wife and I plan on homeschooling our little fella. The homesteader life will be the life that he lives and being independent will be a strong part of his upbringing. The doom scenarios will not be part of his teachings.
Here's why.
If he is taught the skills of survival and being happy in a simple life, he'll be best prepared to bounce back from the bad stuff. He'll know that resource depletion is why WE are acting and becoming independent. It won't be doom. It will be everydaylife adapting as we need. I'll teach my son the word improvise early on so that he has that ability to think outside the box.
To tell my son the world is changing in a bad way would be counter to his ability to have hope, hope for the future that he is building.
There are realistic limitations on people that will become reality as the future generations adapt to the ever increasing lack of cheap energy. Limitations like air travel, leisure time, cigarettes, becoming an astronaut, condoms, a gig as a rock star. etc.
I will not teach my son that he "Can Be Anything He Wants". The sky being the limit. I'll keep his expectations in a realistic scope and allow him to blossom into what he wants to become. If he so desires to go off to fight dragons, then so be it, but he'll not be sold a "Santa Clause" story by me.
I think it is very important to keep the doom out of the children's younger teachings as it will create a negative outcome. ( IMHO ) I'm not suggesting a polyanna approach but on a "Need to Know" basis.
Children also need to have a childhood that is fun and practical. Not Disneyland but Smokey the Bear. Let their imaginations fly.
Children will learn best by the examples you set. Be the peak oil survivor that you want your children to be!
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
Thanks for your input, everybody. It's this kind of experience and opinion sharing that makes this forum valuable, IMHO.
Re: Killing myself. Thanks, but death's on the menu eventually without any action required on my part. Why jump off the wagon now, when you can ride all the way?
Re: TV. I think most people will cope with having to do without it, after initial shock and frustration. It might not be back to the caves, just back to the 30's. The concept of pastime will be revolutionized, and I hope it'll be for the better. I'm most worried about youth who'll look for new (or old) kinds of violent entertainment when there are no more shoot 'em up games to play or action movies to watch. Fights between gangs from different villages were a common sport for bored or drunken youth in earlier days. In any case, the absence of TV and the internet will force people to turn their attention more to the people around them.
Re: School. After the economy has crashed, schools will be ripped of everything non-essential - and in a post-PO world, "essential" might amount to reading, writing, basic arithmetic, elementary knowledge about the world, nature and history, and (maybe most importantly) practical hand skills. School has survived as an institution even in poorest developing countries, so I expect it to function in some form as long as there's a state to run it. I hope homeschooling remains an option, if my children get into trouble in school.
Re: Moving to the countryside. I said that this is unnecessary and unpractical in my case, because to buy a farm of a meaningful size would require money that I don't have and I'd feel very uncomfortable to loan. Agriculture, now so dependent on fossil fuels, will be initially hit hard by PO, until starvation becomes a real and immediate threat and the government starts emergency subsidies for food production. Meanwhile, many farms will probably go bankrupt. Besides, the need for new farmers or farm workers might not be that big, because tractors and harvesters are likely to be the last to lose their fuel rations and later they could run on coal or wood (with a new external engine of course - it's feasible and it's been done before). Right now, I'm just content with spending time at the cottage with my son and daughter, and exploring the possibilities on the small garden plot.
Re: Raising your children. I agree with most comments here; the trick is probably to gradually "indoctrinate" the kids to accept a new frugal lifestyle as inevitable and natural, without scaring them in advance. You just need something else than material wealth and success to believe in and strive for. It's a matter of values, plus time and care, as kevincarter wrote.
Children have lived through wars and disasters that have devastated their happy, little world, but still grown up to be mentally balanced and responsible adults, when given enough guidance and love. So there must be hope... _________________ "A devastating error is to set up a political system based on [individual] desire... the best dictatorship would be one where the government prevents any economical growth."
"Only scarcity and effort make life worth living."
-Pentti Linkola
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
Fredrik wrote:
How can you raise them to cope with hardships, lack of entertainment, cold and darkness, and to expect (at best) a lifetime of hard work?
a lot of what we call "hardships", people in other countries
consider delicacies.
in a condition of food shortages, a worm infested apple
might be useful food. so might organs from a deer that's
just been brought down.
but for people who grew up in America in the second
half of the 20th century, both of those options seem
like extreme hardships. at best we could eat a little
bit, and there's a fair chance it wouldn't stay down.
teaching children to chow down on food that is
healthy (free of food poisoning) but gross by Baby
Boomer standards - that's a definite survival skill.
"Dad, i turned over a quarter acre of our south
plot today. i am SO HUNGRY."
"here, son. have an extra helping of deer liver,
cooked in our solar oven. there's a bushel of
Gravenstein apples in the basement."
"do they have worms ?"
"some of them might."
"oh, Goodie. om, Dad, why are you and Mom
sitting in the back room eating MRE's and Pop-tarts ?"
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
Take your kids camping now, so they are used to getting by on less. Kids who have never had to use a pit toilet, forgo a bath every night and have never cooked over a fire are deprived. Show them that living closer to the land is NOT the end of the world.
Join the Sierra Club, take hikes & picnics, bicycle and get outside!
Prepare some homeschooling supplies now.
Find some small solar set up that will run a portable DVD player - then you'll have the occassional movie and teaching DVD (think National Geographic etc) to teach with. Buy solar rechargable batteries for CD players for teaching music, language etc.
Prepare your home to use alternative sources of light, heat, cooking etc - rainwater harvesting, daylighting tubes, solar and woodstove cooking, cob ovens, massive insulation in the house, join a CSA, buy kerosene lamps & stock up on fuel. Plant a garden. Guerilla garden in alleys, public parks, undeveloped land; plant berry bushes, fruit, nut & olive trees and vegetables. Basically consider how you can replace or replicate the systems you use now.
Consider buying a travel trailer. With a strawbale wrap, composing outside toilet, attached greenhouse etc, it will be decent. (I live in one, but it is cold without propane, just a glorified tent). Better yet, make friends with folks who have land and learn cob building and forest gardening. I don't think an apartment will be livable in 10 years.
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:01 am Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
Quote:
here, son. have an extra helping of deer liver
I may have just figured out why it's not such a stretch for me to consider living without all those luxuries. While I'm generally not a fan of liver, I can say that the one time I did have liver that I actually liked it, I was about nine years old. We were at deer camp. Deer liver roasted on skewers over an open camp fire is really not bad at all.
Oh, and by the way, I used to pedal my bike the 1/4 mile up the road to the old orchard near here often as a kid. I'd swipe a few apples (Arkansas Blacks) and spend the day munching. Worms? Who cared? Just eat around 'em Thankfully that orchard is still producing - not a great amount, but enough for all of us who live close by - and I happen to be friends with the owner. Barter anyone?
Yesterday my oldest (age 9) and I were talking about how much it costs to fill up the car with gas. He said something like, "Well, mom, we wont have to worry about that when I'm older. Won't it be cool to get to ride horses everywhere?"
I reminded him it might be cool unless you had to take a long trip. He said, "Well, if it takes a few days, we can always camp."
Thats a good attitude. We're going to be okay, I think.
Joined: Apr 08, 2006 Posts: 1207 Location: Somewhere there
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:29 am Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
Shannymara wrote:
Baldwin wrote:
Care to adopt me? As a bonus, you get a free silver eagle.
Will you help out with labor and child care in exchange for good food, a roof over your head, and rent-free life at our peak oil homestead? You can keep the silver.
Shanny, what amount of labour&childcare can be exchanged into a good food and a roof over one's head? Just curious.
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
madison wrote:
Take your kids camping now, so they are used to getting by on less. Kids who have never had to use a pit toilet, forgo a bath every night and have never cooked over a fire are deprived. Show them that living closer to the land is NOT the end of the world.
Join the Sierra Club, take hikes & picnics, bicycle and get outside!
Prepare some homeschooling supplies now.
Find some small solar set up that will run a portable DVD player - then you'll have the occassional movie and teaching DVD (think National Geographic etc) to teach with. Buy solar rechargable batteries for CD players for teaching music, language etc.
Prepare your home to use alternative sources of light, heat, cooking etc - rainwater harvesting, daylighting tubes, solar and woodstove cooking, cob ovens, massive insulation in the house, join a CSA, buy kerosene lamps & stock up on fuel. Plant a garden. Guerilla garden in alleys, public parks, undeveloped land; plant berry bushes, fruit, nut & olive trees and vegetables. Basically consider how you can replace or replicate the systems you use now.
Consider buying a travel trailer. With a strawbale wrap, composing outside toilet, attached greenhouse etc, it will be decent. (I live in one, but it is cold without propane, just a glorified tent). Better yet, make friends with folks who have land and learn cob building and forest gardening. I don't think an apartment will be livable in 10 years.
Good advice there, but I'm not sure about the last sentence.
Heating one apartment house with 20 families is more cost-effective than heating 20 individual houses. Especially when the apartment house is attached to a regional heat distribution system, heated by a central power plant that burns coal or wood.
Electricity will certainly be rationed in 10 years, but even with 20% of current electricity, we'd probably manage to cook our food and keep a few lights on. Refridgeration might get problematic at some point (during the warmer part of the year), but then, fridges are just a non-essential 20th century luxury, absent in most homes in the developing world. _________________ "A devastating error is to set up a political system based on [individual] desire... the best dictatorship would be one where the government prevents any economical growth."
"Only scarcity and effort make life worth living."
-Pentti Linkola
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
Fredrik wrote:
Electricity will certainly be rationed in 10 years, but even with 20% of current electricity, we'd probably manage to cook our food and keep a few lights on. Refridgeration might get problematic at some point (during the warmer part of the year), but then, fridges are just a non-essential 20th century luxury, absent in most homes in the developing world.
Even with that, buying a day's worth of meat/milk/produce at once would circumvent that problem. _________________ Only a city man would carry a bag of iron instead of a bag of rice.
-Ling Tan, from the movie Dragon Seed, 1944 (more wisdom from Turner Classic Movies)
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
I'd worry about sanitation - if the plumbing in an apartment freezes, you might have crap and water dripping down from upstairs. I'd also worry about the lack of space to grow some of your own food. And I'd worry about someone falling asleap with an unsafe space heater and burning the entire apartment down. Of course all these are concerns with a house, too, but they are more under your supervision and control.
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
Baldwin wrote:
Fredrik wrote:
Electricity will certainly be rationed in 10 years, but even with 20% of current electricity, we'd probably manage to cook our food and keep a few lights on. Refridgeration might get problematic at some point (during the warmer part of the year), but then, fridges are just a non-essential 20th century luxury, absent in most homes in the developing world.
Even with that, buying a day's worth of meat/milk/produce at once would circumvent that problem.
I think it's idiotic to presume that a fridge is a nonessential luxury. As we powerdown, the fridge will be the last item people give up. And even if the grid collapses, most people would at least pursue limited solar power for essential appliances like a fridge.
Why is there this binary thinking about peakoil that we either have all technology or NO technology? The reality will be somewhere inbetween. Renewables may suck compared to oil, but they are sufficient enough for us to maintain some core facilities.
I mean, some people will not be satisfied unless we're just running around in loincloths with spears and mud huts. Is that all we should aspire to? Good luck making that work in a world of 6-7 billion people.
Joined: Sep 16, 2007 Posts: 1076 Location: Oklahoma City, USA
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
Baldwin wrote:
Fredrik wrote:
Electricity will certainly be rationed in 10 years, but even with 20% of current electricity, we'd probably manage to cook our food and keep a few lights on. Refridgeration might get problematic at some point (during the warmer part of the year), but then, fridges are just a non-essential 20th century luxury, absent in most homes in the developing world.
Even with that, buying a day's worth of meat/milk/produce at once would circumvent that problem.
You only actually need to eat animal products (for the B12) about once a month to be fine. If you eat a variety of vegetables/fruits/grains/legumes you should get plenty of protein. Brewers' yeast has B12 also for you vegans. So that makes life even simpler. _________________ What, so I'm in no end game
Move my piece right off the board
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6371 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
I’d also mention, for anyone that is still interested; there have been several threads over the years along the lines of helping your kids in the Planning for the Future forum.
Of course you would need to use the search feature… _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Sep 16, 2007 Posts: 1076 Location: Oklahoma City, USA
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Preparing your children
I've started just reading articles from the internet out loud about various topics. One of my 12 year old sons (I have twins) has already picked up on the whole peak thing and realizes things won't be as cushy when he's grown. (something my husband has yet to admit) They see me preparing in a calm way and I think it helps them feel secure.
We talk about strengthening the body, learning how to grow things, cool alternate energy ideas, etc. My boys like it. My daughter doesn't say much but I find it encouraging that her boyfriend (that she's pretty serious about) is interested in a vocational career rather than something that doesn't produce anything (He already is excellent at woodworking at age 17, with a good work ethic).
So I think they're on their way. Mine are older though, 16 and 12. If I had really small kids I probably wouldn't say anything at all. _________________ What, so I'm in no end game
Move my piece right off the board
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Thankfully that orchard is still producing - not a great amount, but enough for all of us who live close by - and I happen to be friends with the owner. Barter anyone?
