Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: Fuel Poverty
The British government defines Fuel Poverty as follows:
Quote:
A household is said to be in fuel poverty if it needs to spend more than 10 per cent of its income on fuel to maintain a satisfactory heating regime (usually 21 degrees for the main living area, and 18 degrees for other occupied rooms). The latest available estimates suggest that some two million households in the UK in 2004 were in fuel poverty, and thus had difficulty in keeping their homes warm at an acceptable level of cost.
I wonder how many of us are in this situation of fuel poverty. I would hope not many, as we should be aware of the potential of future cost rises and have started planning how to mitigate the effect.
In the strict sense I am now nowhere near being in fuel poverty, currently using only about 3% of my income on heating (in a climate that is a lot colder than most of the UK), but this was at the expense of spending a whopping 60% of my annual take home pay on a ground heat exchange system!
By comparison if I had continued with oil heating I would be spending about 8% of my income on heating, close to the 'fuel poverty line', and would probably have crossed that line by 2010.
[For our North American brothers and sisters living below the Canadian boarder: 21C = 65F and 18 = 60F] _________________ We should teach our children the 4-Rs: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Rejoice.
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Poverty
there's a good chance that my family will be in fuel poverty this year,providing the price of oil stays around the $90 mark. _________________ Did you hear?
An ice age is coming.
http://www.iceagenow.com/
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Poverty
IslandCrow wrote:
In the strict sense I am now nowhere near being in fuel poverty, currently using only about 3% of my income on heating (in a climate that is a lot colder than most of the UK), but this was at the expense of spending a whopping 60% of my annual take home pay on a ground heat exchange system!
By comparison if I had continued with oil heating I would be spending about 8% of my income on heating, close to the 'fuel poverty line', and would probably have crossed that line by 2010.
Nice to see somebody put his money where his mouth is. But it'll sure pay off in time.
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Poverty
If we had left our house rigged as it was when we bought it three years ago we would be spending that 10%, esp if we kept the thermostat up and just complained about the cost.
A little tightening up, a little "zone heating" by not heating the upstairs and a larger wood stove and right now we are spending almost nothing on heat. We buy LP twice a year, and that second time is just a topping off of the tank before hurricane season. If need be I think we could go to once a year and then it would primarily be for hot water.
Were it not for other competing priorities than we would add a solar hot water system. Things as they are that falls a little farther down the list. _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable."
John Kenneth Galbraith
Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Poverty
"It is a strange definition of poverty. If people didn't insist on the 18-21 degrees that are far into the comfort zone, many of them wouldn't need to spend 10% of their income on heating. There is real poverty, and then there is setting the bar too high."
Every degree below 18 degree`s that people sleep and live in increases the rate of death among the elderly by 2%.
It also increases significantly the risk of other respiratory infections such as cold and flues, in healthy younger people. Even if you sleep with lots of blankets on at night, the fact that you breath in cold air is the critical aspect that heightens the risk of illness. Viruses and bacteria love to get a foothold in this cold air that is breathed in.
It was a research point of mine for a disertation. It is not as easy as just rugging up with blankets and extra sweaters. Going down to 18 C, is fine, along with rugging up. But below that, regardless of how warm you dress it isncreases the risk of illness (and if you are old, the risk of death from associated infection).
It is worse in areas where the cold is a wet cold, as opposed to a dry cold however.
I live in Japan and am currently taping bubble warp to my windows to keep in heat at night. (It is a common method of insulation in Japan rurl areas). There is almost no central heating in mainland Japan.
Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:59 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Poverty
Twilight wrote:
It is a strange definition of poverty. If people didn't insist on the 18-21 degrees that are far into the comfort zone, many of them wouldn't need to spend 10% of their income on heating. There is real poverty, and then there is setting the bar too high.
Thanks for your input on this issue, Mudpuppy. Open concept floorplans, although perhaps aesthetically pleasing, can be big sources of heat loss and higher heating bills.
Compartmentalizing houses with doors between rooms, individual thermostats and additional sources of supplemental heat, can all help cut heating bills, while keeping room temperatures in those rooms that you are losing within comfortable, healthy ranges.
However, I am wondering about your research. What role does conditioning play on susceptibility to colds and viruses from breathing in cold air? Winter athletes - like ice hockey players and cross-country skiers - always breath in cold air, while sweating, and from my experience do not suffer more colds or illnesses than less active people who stay indoors all winter long. I certainly never have.
I usually feel myself succumbing to cold-like symtoms about once or twice per year, but usually associated with being tired and a change of seasons. If I catch the symptoms early enough, I can usually avoid actually catching a cold by dressing warmer, sleeping more and eating hot foods. I realize I may not be representative of the average.
However, I did live in Garmisch-Partenkirchen in the Bavarian Alps. GAP has the oldest population in Germany as well as the largest number of elderly over the age of 100. Many of these seniors are also active outdoors year round including skiing. Most of them would have grown up in houses without central heating, and bedrooms with heavy down comforters, but otherwise uncomfortably cold.
Perhaps dumb examples, but I come from a colder climate, and I do not believe we are on average sicker because of that exposure? Perhaps just hardier on average? Individual conditioning? Thanks. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Poverty
MrBill wrote:
I usually feel myself succumbing to cold-like symtoms about once or twice per year, but usually associated with being tired and a change of seasons.
That's exactly the case with most people. It isn't breathing cold air that's the problem. It's the metabolic change from hot to cold, often made worse by people trying to keep their homes too warm in winter. A home should be colder in winter than it is in summer. Not uncomfortably cold, but you should be wearing a jumper instead of short sleeves.
MrBill wrote:
Perhaps dumb examples, but I come from a colder climate, and I do not believe we are on average sicker because of that exposure? Perhaps just hardier on average?
One of the things I've learned by moving to the UK is that there definitely are genetic differences in resistance to heat and cold. I never found the recent English summers uncomfortable, while the English people around me seemed to be almost unable to function. On the other hand, I'm always wearing more layers than everybody else in the winter. And in Spain, I wasn't seen as a 'cold cat', in any case just the opposite! My mother and my brother used to always ask me: 'Don't you feel cold? You aren't wearing enough clothes!' _________________ What are you doing about peak oil?
I am doing this
(click on the www button) v
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:54 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Poverty
I think a lot of it is where you grow up. My mother is from central Texas and thinks winters in the midwest are brutal, but she's never bothered by the oppressive heat we have in July and August.
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:39 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Poverty
Twilight wrote:
It is a strange definition of poverty. If people didn't insist on the 18-21 degrees that are far into the comfort zone, many of them wouldn't need to spend 10% of their income on heating. There is real poverty, and then there is setting the bar too high.
I agree. This kind of public policy is really counterproductive. Like mudpuppy, I live in Japan, and I've grown accustomed to shutting myself into a small enclosed room, dressing warm with hat and long underwear, and putting a space heater right by legs. I spend about $US 30-50/month to heat, and I'm perfectly warm, even too hot sometimes. People in fuel poverty should be targeted for energy audits and counseling, to teach them how to live comfortably with almost no energy. They should not be given subsidies or aid until all other methods have been exhausted. _________________ A periscope up every ass!
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Poverty
JohnDenver wrote:
... They should not be given subsidies or aid until all other methods have been exhausted.
It is my observation that most people actually don't mind giving someone else a subsidy so long as they are well supplied...even in "conservative" America.
For example during the 1980's when Ronald Reagan was around, low income housing for the poor was an issue that generated much discussion in the media. Whether this discussion actually led to action can be left for another time. *back on topic* In today's world thanks to housing inflation most middle income people are being stretched thin just to put a roof over their head.
NOBODY talks about subsidized housing for the poor these days. Even democratic political candidates and "liberal" news media stations aren't keen about opening their mouths unless they wish to piss of the majority middle class. Why should a person pay taxes to help someone else out when they're having trouble themselves?
Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:30 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Poverty
Quote:
However, I am wondering about your research. What role does conditioning play on susceptibility to colds and viruses from breathing in cold air? Winter athletes - like ice hockey players and cross-country skiers - always breath in cold air, while sweating, and from my experience do not suffer more colds or illnesses than less active people who stay indoors all winter long. I certainly never have.
One thing I noticed about this type of research is that it seems based around areas where the winter is a wet cold. This apparently makes a big difference for respiratory infection rates. Alberta in winter I noticed was a dry cold, and at -6 I felt fine getting out of the car for short periods in a T-shirt to fill it with petrol. So it could well be the case that you can safely go much colder than 18 in a dry cold. England has a wet cold though, and this is awful stuff.
Although it is hard to compare it with things like Ice hockey players, as it would seem to be a correlation for amount of time spent in the cold air. I mean, Ice hockey players aren`t spending all night sleeping on the rink. (well, then again, I wouldn`t put it past Canadians ).
As the other Japan based poster mentioned, the Japanese way of life for dealing wit cold is different. I can`t help but think this is because japan has no indigenous fossil fuels, and fuel is expensive here. (Although i refuse to go the Kerosene option as I hate the fumes).
Howevewr Hokkaido does use central heating and insulation in places out of necessity.
Hmm... email bulletins don`t seem to work anymore, which is why I forgot about this thread.
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4369 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Poverty
A home should be colder in winter than it is in summer. Not uncomfortably cold, but you should be wearing a jumper instead of short sleeves.
Doly, my sentiments exactly. Summertime is when our house is in the mid-20's or more and winter is when the house is 14 to 16 C. Why have such a high 21C comfort standard. 16 (60F) is perfect if wearing a nice soft cozy sweater and a pair of socks. It gets to 14 at night, but snuggled in bed, who cares?
We pay around $40/mo in NATGAS during the four coolest winter months. If we went to 21 degrees we would have to pay somewhere around $125 or more/mo.
Oh well, eventually the ridiculous and gluttonous 21C standard will be lowered. Either that or in a few years 100% of the people in UK will be considered living in fuel poverty. _________________ Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Poverty
Quote:
Although it is hard to compare it with things like Ice hockey players, as it would seem to be a correlation for amount of time spent in the cold air. I mean, Ice hockey players aren`t spending all night sleeping on the rink. (well, then again, I wouldn`t put it past Canadians ).
Don't ask me because I sleep in snow caves for my mountain and travel rescue training for the national ski patrol, but I have a cold this weekend, although the temperature outside is 'only' 22 degrees Celcius and we are outside in t-shirts and shorts.
One caveat about UK research. London attracts many immigrants and economic migrants. Some from much different climates than the colder, wetter N. Sea climate. They may be more susceptible to colder, damper weather than 'native' English, but still show-up statistically in NHS data. Cheers. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
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