Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
MonteQuest wrote:
Attitude? As Charles Darwin noted, " The cumulative biotic potential of any given species always exceeds the carrying capacity of it's environment." All species produe more offspring than can survive.
Most species just reach the upper limits and population growth slows, with sometimes a die-back to sustainable levels.
Some, like us, occasionally overshoot and crash back to a sustainable level.
We chose not to limit our numbers when we knew the consequences of overshoot.
And yet, in contrast to the "greedy gene" argument, in many if not most species infertility is natural response to certain enviromental circumstances, e.g. drop in food supply etc. I'm convinced that overreliance on analytical thinking and reductionistic scientific paradigm and... searching for a word... disrespect for holistic systems and sense for undivided wholes is what is going to reduce humanity well below natural carrying capacity. Holistic thinking - or feeling - and balance between holistic and analytical thinking is major part of the paradigm shift we are talking about.
To parafrace Alfred Korzybski: "Whatever we say about nature, it is something else, something more".
Joined: Jun 14, 2008 Posts: 81 Location: With one foot in ascent and the other in descent
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
MrBean wrote:
Can you tell what does the R in R-selected and K in K-selected stand for?
So do I understand correctly your point, that if hoping that some future generation could live in a climax stage agroforest, spreading multiple seed of edible and otherwise human friendly K-selected species is best done at earlier stages of succession than at climax stage?
R-selected probably stands for reproductive strategies; R-selected species are like weeds, producing many seeds, short-lived species that try to compete for resources and dominate. K-selected may stand for carrying capacity or the mathematical k for constant. I don't know; I am not an ecologist. Climax systems and species are slower growing, producing less offspring/seeds, are better at using resources collaboratively and recycling, etc.
The Wiki description below is good, but it implies that k-strategists use competitive strategies, which is not my understanding. The Wiki descriptions also suggest that humans are k-species, which I would refute. Seems to me that we've done a pretty good job of acting like weeds and spreading all over the globe for the past century, until we're some kind of desperately overgrown monoculture, excluding other species.
So what I'm saying is that we've behaved more like an R-species for the past century due to the storages of fossil fuels, but that hopefully we can adapt and behave more like a k-species? _________________ Because it's all about the oil.
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
MonteQuest wrote:
MrBean wrote:
If I understood right, Monte is expecting Pandemia (soon) and putting his hope of reducing the numbers in (global) governement refusal and forbidding of medical aid for the victims of Pandemia. Not really plausible.
I have never posted anything of the like. You haven't the foggiest of notion of what my position is. Not a damn clue.
This is what I mean when I say you are in denial of reality.
Then I really don't understand what you mean by saying that we must choose (this or that horseman) from the right hand list before nature does.
If reality is what MQ means (but does not tell clearly enough) by saying we must choose from the right hand list before nature does and by saying that reduced fertility is not enough and something needs to be done to increase death rate, then it's not denial of that reality, just ignorance and/or poor understanding. Praytell, what pragmatic actions do you mean when you say those things?
Quote:
My hope lies in an ecological paradigm shift in thinking that allows us to make decisions about our future based upon ecological principles of what is sustainable.
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
AlexdeLarge wrote:
What shall we do with these "backlash/deniers" who continue to proliferate? Do they think they will be able to hide their children in plain sight, under the radar...... from our local, smaller, simpler (kinder, gentler, machine gun hand) government ?
I think you are right comrade.........Change will be easier to affect. A brave new world......
What I suspect he means is that with such a diverse and free population here in North America and the western world it is virtually impossible to implement such draconian measures other than some form of tyranny. What if I want to have a motorbike or a go-cart and can afford it? Or like to keep my house at 72 degrees. Will there be a mob at my porch calling for my lynching. I for one wouldnt live in a state that mandated how many times I went to the grocery store per month. It would be a utopian hell. Such a state would require such a massive beurocracy and so many laws that it would be unworkable at best and a police state at worst. If it reaches that point I am joining with my other like minded country folk and forming our own small fiefdom. As for me give me liberty or give me death.
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
To continue: in another thread, Monte says:
Quote:
But why would a person knowledable in ecological overshoot want to stop the rebalancing process that ensures our survival?
The boat is sinking from being overlaoded and you want to stop people from jumping ship?
Hard for people to think that way, but we are going to have to.
Yes hard to think that way indeed, and I believe it is Monte that is in denial of reality if he thinks that refusing medical aid (if and when available) for themselves or especially for their closest ones is going to happen on any larger scale because being knowledable in ecological overshoot. Just against our most natural instincts, being a social species.
Joined: Apr 12, 2007 Posts: 1198 Location: Central NC
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
MrBean wrote:
To continue: in another thread, Monte says:
Quote:
But why would a person knowledable in ecological overshoot want to stop the rebalancing process that ensures our survival?
The boat is sinking from being overlaoded and you want to stop people from jumping ship?
Hard for people to think that way, but we are going to have to.
Yes hard to think that way indeed, and I believe it is Monte that is in denial of reality if he thinks that refusing medical aid (if and when available) for themselves or especially for their closest ones is going to happen on any larger scale because being knowledable in ecological overshoot. Just against our most natural instincts, being a social species.
Mr. Bean,
Whether purposeful or accidental I do not know, but you misconstrue Monte's posts with amazing reliability. _________________ "The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
Sir Winston Churchill
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
VMarcHart wrote:
MonteQuest wrote:
I have never posted anything of the like. You haven't the foggiest of notion of what my position is. Not a damn clue. This is what I mean when I say you are in denial of reality.
Monte, my tourette's not withstanding, this attitude of yours is what gets in the way of more people accepting reality. It's so abrassive, so unbecoming the guy you can be. Think about that. You do that to a lot of people.
Live long, live happily.
Love,
VMH.
And a lot of people don't do their homework. Think about that.
You are new here. You don' t know the crap I have had to put up with for years. I quit posting for a while because of it.
I have no patience for mediocrity anymore. Zero.
Don't like it? Don't read my posts. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
MrBean wrote:
Then I really don't understand what you mean by saying that we must choose (this or that horseman) from the right hand list before nature does.
If reality is what MQ means (but does not tell clearly enough) by saying we must choose from the right hand list before nature does and by saying that reduced fertility is not enough and something needs to be done to increase death rate, then it's not denial of that reality, just ignorance and/or poor understanding. Praytell, what pragmatic actions do you mean when you say those things?.
Do some homework on me. I have posted an explanation of that sooooooooooooooo many times...............
I'll let Dr, Bartlettt explain one more time.....
"Now, if this current modest 1.3% per year could continue, the world population would grow to a density of one person per square meter on the dry land surface of the earth in just 780 years, and the mass of people would equal the mass of the earth in just 2400 years. Well, we can smile at those, we know they couldn't happen. This one make for a cute cartoon; the caption says, “Excuse me sir, but I am prepared to make you a rather attractive offer for your square.”
There's a very profound lesson in that cartoon. The lesson is that zero population growth is going to happen. Now, we can debate whether we like zero population growth or don't like it, it’s going to happen. Whether we debate it or not, whether we like it or not, it’s absolutely certain. People could never live at that density on the dry land surface of the earth. Therefore, today’s high birth rates will drop; today’s low death rates will rise till they have exactly the same numerical value. That will certainly be in a time short compared to 780 years. So maybe you're wondering then, what options are available if we wanted to address the problem.
In the left hand column, I’ve listed some of those things that we should encourage if we want to raise the rate of growth of population and in so doing, make the problem worse. Just look at the list. Everything in the list is as sacred as motherhood. There's immigration, medicine, public health, sanitation. These are all devoted to the humane goals of lowering the death rate and that’s very important to me, if it’s my death they’re lowering. But then I’ve got to realise that anything that just lowers the death rate makes the population problem worse.
There’s peace, law and order; scientific agriculture has lowered the death rate due to famine—that just makes the population problem worse. It’s widely reported that the 55 mph speed limit saved thousands of lives—that just makes the population problem worse. Clean air makes it worse.
Now, in this column are some of the things we should encourage if we want to lower the rate of growth of population and in so doing, help solve the population problem. Well, there’s abstention, contraception, abortion, small families, stop immigration, disease, war, murder, famine, accidents. Now, smoking clearly raises the death rate; well, that helps solve the problem.
Remember our conclusion from the cartoon of one person per square meter; we concluded that zero population growth is going to happen. Let’s state that conclusion in other terms and say it’s obvious nature is going to choose from the right hand list and we don't have to do anything—except be prepared to live with whatever nature chooses from that right hand list. Or we can exercise the one option that’s open to us, and that option is to choose first from the right hand list. We gotta find something here we can go out and campaign for. Anyone here for promoting disease? (audience laughter)
We now have the capability of incredible war; would you like more murder, more famine, more accidents? Well, here we can see the human dilemma—everything we regard as good makes the population problem worse, everything we regard as bad helps solve the problem. There is a dilemma if ever there was one." _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Apr 12, 2007 Posts: 1198 Location: Central NC
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
MonteQuest wrote:
MrBean wrote:
Then I really don't understand what you mean by saying that we must choose (this or that horseman) from the right hand list before nature does.
If reality is what MQ means (but does not tell clearly enough) by saying we must choose from the right hand list before nature does and by saying that reduced fertility is not enough and something needs to be done to increase death rate, then it's not denial of that reality, just ignorance and/or poor understanding. Praytell, what pragmatic actions do you mean when you say those things?.
Do some homework on me. I have posted an explanation of that sooooooooooooooo many times...............
I'll let Dr, Bartlettt explain one more time.....
"Now, if this current modest 1.3% per year could continue, the world population would grow to a density of one person per square meter on the dry land surface of the earth in just 780 years, and the mass of people would equal the mass of the earth in just 2400 years. Well, we can smile at those, we know they couldn't happen. This one make for a cute cartoon; the caption says, “Excuse me sir, but I am prepared to make you a rather attractive offer for your square.”
There's a very profound lesson in that cartoon. The lesson is that zero population growth is going to happen. Now, we can debate whether we like zero population growth or don't like it, it’s going to happen. Whether we debate it or not, whether we like it or not, it’s absolutely certain. People could never live at that density on the dry land surface of the earth. Therefore, today’s high birth rates will drop; today’s low death rates will rise till they have exactly the same numerical value. That will certainly be in a time short compared to 780 years. So maybe you're wondering then, what options are available if we wanted to address the problem.
In the left hand column, I’ve listed some of those things that we should encourage if we want to raise the rate of growth of population and in so doing, make the problem worse. Just look at the list. Everything in the list is as sacred as motherhood. There's immigration, medicine, public health, sanitation. These are all devoted to the humane goals of lowering the death rate and that’s very important to me, if it’s my death they’re lowering. But then I’ve got to realise that anything that just lowers the death rate makes the population problem worse.
There’s peace, law and order; scientific agriculture has lowered the death rate due to famine—that just makes the population problem worse. It’s widely reported that the 55 mph speed limit saved thousands of lives—that just makes the population problem worse. Clean air makes it worse.
Now, in this column are some of the things we should encourage if we want to lower the rate of growth of population and in so doing, help solve the population problem. Well, there’s abstention, contraception, abortion, small families, stop immigration, disease, war, murder, famine, accidents. Now, smoking clearly raises the death rate; well, that helps solve the problem.
Remember our conclusion from the cartoon of one person per square meter; we concluded that zero population growth is going to happen. Let’s state that conclusion in other terms and say it’s obvious nature is going to choose from the right hand list and we don't have to do anything—except be prepared to live with whatever nature chooses from that right hand list. Or we can exercise the one option that’s open to us, and that option is to choose first from the right hand list. We gotta find something here we can go out and campaign for. Anyone here for promoting disease? (audience laughter)
We now have the capability of incredible war; would you like more murder, more famine, more accidents? Well, here we can see the human dilemma—everything we regard as good makes the population problem worse, everything we regard as bad helps solve the problem. There is a dilemma if ever there was one."
And if anyone wants to know the Dr. in Dr. Bartlett stands for a Phd in Physics. Professor Emeritus at the University of Colorado. _________________ "The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
Sir Winston Churchill
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
MrBean wrote:
Yes hard to think that way indeed, and I believe it is Monte that is in denial of reality if he thinks that refusing medical aid (if and when available) for themselves or especially for their closest ones is going to happen on any larger scale because being knowledable in ecological overshoot. Just against our most natural instincts, being a social species.
Now who's the "doomer"? _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
MonteQuest wrote:
MrBean wrote:
Yes hard to think that way indeed, and I believe it is Monte that is in denial of reality if he thinks that refusing medical aid (if and when available) for themselves or especially for their closest ones is going to happen on any larger scale because being knowledable in ecological overshoot. Just against our most natural instincts, being a social species.
Now who's the "doomer"?
I've been the doomer all the time, as far as western/global civilization goes. If you actually bothered to read instead of just attacking your fantoms and going for the ad hominem all the time, you might have even noticed.
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
Homesteader wrote:
Mr. Bean,
Whether purposeful or accidental I do not know, but you misconstrue Monte's posts with amazing reliability.
The result of not doing one's homework nor having a grasp of the concepts underlying the topic.
I find it tedious...
In fact, it's one the things I note about the cornys. They don't read the links.
They just rail at the notion of limits, the facts be damned. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
MonteQuest wrote:
Do some homework on me. I have posted an explanation of that sooooooooooooooo many times...............
I'll let Dr, Bartlettt explain one more time.....
No, I'm not interested rereading what Bartlett says but what MQ thinks about what Bartlett says. What does it mean to choose for you and what is your choise? And what that choise means in practice.
Or do you bring up the right hand list just for entertainement value?
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
MrBean wrote:
I've been the doomer all the time, as far as western/global civilization goes. If you actually bothered to read instead of just attacking your fantoms and going for the ad hominem all the time, you might have even noticed.
I never resort to ad hominems. You might want to look up the definition.
I find the merits quite enough to debate rather than resorting to "attacks against the man" to win any debate.
And if you find me observing you don't have a grasp of the concepts, it certainly isn't a personal attack.
And I did just read your statement that says a ecological paradigm shift in our thinking isn't possible and to think so is a denial of reality.
That's pretty "doomer" and defeatist. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Powerdown: The Solution to Peak Oil
MrBean wrote:
MonteQuest wrote:
Do some homework on me. I have posted an explanation of that sooooooooooooooo many times...............
I'll let Dr, Bartlettt explain one more time.....
No, I'm not interested rereading what Bartlett says but what MQ thinks about what Bartlett says. What does it mean to choose for you and what is your choise? And what that choise means in practice.
Or do you bring up the right hand list just for entertainement value?
Do a search. There are numerous threads on the entire subject explained at length ad naseum.
Not going to rehash it here just for you. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
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You haven't the foggiest of notion of what my position is. Not a damn clue.
