Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
MrBean wrote:
Nicholai wrote:
Are they sustainable enough that they will not be hurt by peak oil as bad?
Nope, still a long way to total self-subsistence, and not really achievable - or even aspired for. But supposing all links broke down I guess they would stand a fair chance of not (all of them) starving or freezing to death during the winter
If all links broke down, the ecovillage would be screwed just like the rest of us. If the townspeople of Keuruu were starving but the ecovillagers were not, many of the unprepared & hungry would find their way there and take what they need.
If the society actually broke down, survival would be extremely difficult for all but the richest farmers in a Northern country like ours. (A resource-richer country in a temperate climate might be different.) That's why I believe most people will have enough sense to keep the society from breaking down and accept whatever rationings and deprivations are necessary to keep it going. Most will not go berserk or gang up to loot another neighborhood as long as a functional society can offer them some steady supply of calories and warmth. I expect this in all countries that can keep the social fabric from total collapse. _________________ "The progress of civilization:
bondage --> spiritual faith --> courage --> liberty --> abundance --> complacency --> apathy --> dependence --> bondage." - Alexander Tyler
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
Fredrik wrote:
MrBean wrote:
Nicholai wrote:
Are they sustainable enough that they will not be hurt by peak oil as bad?
Nope, still a long way to total self-subsistence, and not really achievable - or even aspired for. But supposing all links broke down I guess they would stand a fair chance of not (all of them) starving or freezing to death during the winter
If all links broke down, the ecovillage would be screwed just like the rest of us. If the townspeople of Keuruu were starving but the ecovillagers were not, many of the unprepared & hungry would find their way there and take what they need.
If the society actually broke down, survival would be extremely difficult for all but the richest farmers in a Northern country like ours. (A resource-richer country in a temperate climate might be different.) That's why I believe most people will have enough sense to keep the society from breaking down and accept whatever rationings and deprivations are necessary to keep it going. Most will not go berserk or gang up to loot another neighborhood as long as a functional society can offer them some steady supply of calories and warmth. I expect this in all countries that can keep the social fabric from total collapse.
Extremely difficult for all of us who are used to the usual comforts, but by no means impossible. Basically, all you need is food and warmth, and even a single family unit with kaski-farming, with little or no exchange with other units, was quite tough to kill.
I have lately developed a near mania about sembra-pines. In the older days, wise czars of Russia introduced them into Finland - especially in Punkaharju, based on the experience that Siberian tribes living with sembra pines don't suffer real famine. When imagining multi-layerd gardens for future generations in Northern Eurasia, sembra-pines will be very important as the top-most layer.
The big problem is the excess population with non-sustainable living standards, and as the current system of growth mania ("civilization") is the problem, not the solution, I have severe doubts about it's ability to transform even into most modestly benevolent ecofascism of "security state" and "soft landing". Not everything will immediately - and probably ever - brake down into most basic units (hunter-gatherers and permaculture gardners), but there will be real chaos and mayham before the worst is over, and personal survival is not - or should not be - an issue. Mania about personal survival is psychologically and spiritually - not to mention materially - energy sink.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
MrBean wrote:
The big problem is the excess population with non-sustainable living standards, and as the current system of growth mania ("civilization") is the problem, not the solution, I have severe doubts about it's ability to transform even into most modestly benevolent ecofascism of "security state" and "soft landing".
We'll have to agree to disagree on that. (Until you submit to the ecofascist party line or I'm killed by zombies, that is.)
I've been reading some wartime history lately. Even in extremely poor, distressed and hungry circumstances (like Germany at the end of WW2), most people have still carried on by whatever they survive on, without letting the social system disintegrate. And I think it will be more like the hyperinflational depression of the Weimar Republic than total war & destruction. Of course, the outcome has to do with the dominant culture and "national character" as well.
There will be a lot of anger, and maybe some violence, but it probably won't be channeled towards the neighbor who's jobless and hungry like you, but against some politically or ethnically defined enemy group. Mortality will rise, but mostly among the old and sick. (And there's going to be quite many sick, with ever deteriorating healthcare.)
Some food + some energy + rule of law = chances to survive.
Some food + some energy + anarchy = pretty soon no food or energy except for the very few lucky ones.
Basic survival instinct (the strongest human urge) will make most people see this. Losing your living standard is acceptable to a rational person when losing your life is the other option. At the latest, when riots have caused a temporary shutdown of essential services, most will demand law and order and harsh punishment for aggressors.
MrBean wrote:
The real question about PO, friends, is why settle on anything less than paradise on Earth?
Just convince the superfluous 90% to die off first. _________________ "The progress of civilization:
bondage --> spiritual faith --> courage --> liberty --> abundance --> complacency --> apathy --> dependence --> bondage." - Alexander Tyler
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
Speaking of the language Finnish, what does the word "Seikkailija" mean in English? It's a song performed by Dacia. Maybe because I can recite the song well enough, they'll take me too.
Wishful Thinking
I'm from the U.S., and embarrassed by the fact, but living in the state of Minnesota all these years, I've always thought of Canada as an equal. We share the same lakes!
Joined: Jun 15, 2007 Posts: 594 Location: St.Albert, AB
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
Canada is not the same as the United States, read the book "The Truth About Canada" by Mel Hurtig. Canada is made up of random people with jobs working in foreign-owned companies (Canada has the largest percentage of foreign ownership over any other country in the world by far!) . Anyways, that's a different issue entirely and I wish to focus on Finland.
Some questions for Mr.Bean, is the farm hard to find? Is it in a sparsely populated region? Where do you live? Personally, I think Finland is the perfect location since there is no longer any reason for Russia to invade, low population density, TONS of fresh water, TONS of trees, no natural gas to draw major powers, no oil reserves to draw major powers. I think Sweden and Norway will experience floods of people since their language isn't nearly as difficult and a vast amount of the population speaks English almost to a native level. They are northern and will experience the best of the worst of what climate change has to offer and Norway's Foreign Investment Fund is looking to hit around 600,000,000,000$ by 2009, making Norway one of the richest nations in the world per capita. As for Finland, I think people will be dissuaded because of the language barrier and the lack of knowledge of Finland in general. Everyone knows about Sweden and Norway, Finland seems to be forgotten....except sometimes when Canada destroys them in hockey, but this is again another story...
How is Finland's climate changing? How do the Finnish people view foreigners? Is there a difference between the way Finns treat Danish people vs, say, Ethiopian people? Are the ladies of Keuruu very nice? Are they very strict? What are their reasons for joining this village?
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
Nicholai wrote:
How is Finland's climate changing? How do the Finnish people view foreigners? Is there a difference between the way Finns treat Danish people vs, say, Ethiopian people? Are the ladies of Keuruu very nice? Are they very strict? What are their reasons for joining this village?
The climate change has made winter a very bleak experience here. There is no snow, there is no sun, so its depressing and dark outside for a long part of the year. If it keeps getting warmer here and the golf/gulf-stream doesnt halt to a standstill, then its fair to assume that climate change will benefit finland with a longer growing season. The growing season was classically regarded as too short here.
We, finnish people, are sullen and withdrawn from an outsiders perspective. When in collision with more sociable cultures we tend to get regarded as curious people or even hostile, but it is usually just a misunderstanding. One of Finlands problems currently is our dwindling population, which our government is trying to mitigate by taking in lots of immigrants. Having an open door for immigrations from war-torn african nations for a long time has raised racial issues. There is a general consensus of barely concealed hostility towards somalians, for example.
The bigger towns (our biggest 'city' and capital is only 500,000 people so from the pov of the whole world we dont have cities!) have contained alien minorities for quite some time now, so regular folks are not racially prejudiced. Especially in Helsinki you can run into pretty much any language being spoken. On the other hand when you go out into the less populated places the populace is pretty homogenous, which lends itself to racial prejudice.
A lot of the programming on TV is from north american companies, so finnish folk tend to regard anyone capable of speaking a distinct north american dialect as some sort of a celebrity. So its is easy to charm folks just by talking, if youre coming in from that part of the world. Though I would imagine going over the same basic conversation in very cumbersome slow english that the folks here know might get tiring after a while. On the other hand the actions of Bush&co. have seen to a rise in anti american sentiment, but this is true pretty much everywhere else also.
... As for the ladies of Keuruu I'm afraid you will have to find out for yourself.
Kristen wrote:
Speaking of the language Finnish, what does the word "Seikkailija" mean in English? It's a song performed by Dacia. Maybe because I can recite the song well enough, they'll take me too.
Wishful Thinking
Joined: Jun 15, 2007 Posts: 594 Location: St.Albert, AB
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
I'm sorry if I offend anyone but from what I've seen on this board (from those who have identified themselves as Finnish), Finnish people don't seem to be very happy. Would you recommend Sweden or Norway instead? How about Denmark? I'm visiting the largest commune in Europe located 50km west of Copenhagen but the problem with Denmark is that it's a tiny country of over 5 million people and I don't want to be stuck in a bad situation when hoards of people start looking for a better place to live. Thoughts?
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
You seem to be bent on communes and ecovillages. But the way I see it: if things got so dire that you would want to be in one, the place would most probably get pillaged (by government or by looters) and abandoned. In your position I'd consider learning a practical trade that will be in high demand in a post-cheap-oil world, as soon as possible. And as I've noted, you're welcome here but there are many upsides to living in your native country, like having family and friends around. I've got an American friend who's settled here and I don't think the next decades are going to be easy for him when global communications break down and he has to speculate his family's fate across the ocean.
Nicholai wrote:
I'm sorry if I offend anyone but from what I've seen on this board (from those who have identified themselves as Finnish), Finnish people don't seem to be very happy.
No we're not, and we're quite proud of our morbid sadness and pessimism. Maybe that's why the gloomy ambience of peak oil forums seems to attract a disproportionate number of us.
Nicholai wrote:
Would you recommend Sweden or Norway instead? How about Denmark?
More joyful and talkative people, easier languages, a little warmer climate, peaceful societies (except some immigrant ghettoes). But more refugee hordes to be expected as you noted. _________________ "The progress of civilization:
bondage --> spiritual faith --> courage --> liberty --> abundance --> complacency --> apathy --> dependence --> bondage." - Alexander Tyler
Joined: Jun 15, 2007 Posts: 594 Location: St.Albert, AB
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
Gah, my native country (Canada) is not going to be in any pleasant state in the next 50 years. Soon Canada will not exist and we will be apart of the United States, Alberta (my province of residence) is expected to have severe drought within the next 40 years and our climate is expected to return to it's more desert-like state. There is an undercurrent of political will in the United States to start requiring Canada to divert major rivers and lakes to the United States due to water shortages in the Mid West. With our current free trade agreement with the US, Canada MUST continue to export oil to the United States even if we are experiencing domestic shortages, I would be glad to link you that article if you would like. America soldiers can now enter Canada if we request so, under the premise of a 'domestic emergency'. Vise vera with the United States and Canadian soldiers. Most Americans are garunteed to move North. Would anyone recommend looking at ecovillages in Quebec? I speak French and the ecovillage is located on an old military base so the homes are all well fortified and it seems fairly isolated. The only problem that I could see would be high population density in the East Coast...butt I think Americans would be VERY desperate to move into back-country Quebec. I'm thinking I will visit the ecovillage in Quebec before I come to Finland. Anyways...anything you can tell me, keep it coming, it's much appreciated.
Joined: Jun 11, 2008 Posts: 6 Location: Upstate South Carolina
Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
Nicholai--
You said: "Most Americans are garunteed to move North."
Beg to differ with you. Most of the absolute highest growth rate is to the south east like North and South Carolina, Georgia, to the south west Arizona, and Oregon on the west coast. Most people ARE NOT moving North. And where do you get this absurd idea that we want to take over Canada??? Heck, I think more Americans are concerned that the Mexicans and Japanese are taking over US!
Most Americans do not support these porous borders with Mexico and Canada.
I personally have ZERO desire to move anywhere the average winter temp. is below 55 degrees. But then I'm southern born and bred. LOL!
You would have a much greater chance of finding what you're looking for here on the North American continent and would probably be happier around people that are familiar to you. But that is just my opinion.
Joined: Jun 15, 2007 Posts: 594 Location: St.Albert, AB
Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
Of course I wasn't speaking about the present. Americans aren't moving north at the moment, but as the US mid west experiences more frequent dry spells and the economy of the United States goes through the floor, where are they likely to move? Where on earth would you find a similar culture, language and lifestyle with a bountiful amount of natural resources left over to keep the economy humming at a moderate level? Canada. Victoria never sees snow, it's really not THAT cold of a country anymore. There will be many Americans coming here I can guarantee it. When things start to fail, they'll want somewhere safe and similar...that my friend is Canada.
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:19 am Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
Fredrik wrote:
You seem to be bent on communes and ecovillages. But the way I see it: if things got so dire that you would want to be in one, the place would most probably get pillaged (by government or by looters) and abandoned.
In regards to looters, the key is how well connected and interlinked an ecovillage is to its neighbours. I don't believe friends and members of the local hunging club need to worry much about "zombie hoards".
Governement actions, on the other hand, are wildly chaotic and unpredictable in most areas, and by general rule extremely oppressive towards any sign of independence, so that is a genuine fear. On the balancing side, it is not unreasonable prediction that with PO advancing governements are becoming more and more inefficient - to do their worst.
Quote:
No we're not, and we're quite proud of our morbid sadness and pessimism. Maybe that's why the gloomy ambience of peak oil forums seems to attract a disproportionate number of us.
One underlying reason for our morbid sadness that we seldom speak about (collective shame? Stockholm syndrome?) is that we have been colonized by Europeans more than 500 years, and now have become nearly totally assimilated.
Joined: Jun 15, 2007 Posts: 594 Location: St.Albert, AB
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
I'd have to say that my character is fairly immature and blaze. I don't anything seriously in most scenarios but ask me about politics and I hope to have you leaving the room in tears or at least too depressed to function. Other than that, I enjoy beer and parties just like everyone else. I hope this fits into the live of the average Finn. Are most Finns peak oil aware or have at least a lesser energy intensive lifestyle than our own in North America? Rural Quebec is also an option for me at this point but I intend to visit everywhere possible before I make my decision.
Joined: Jun 15, 2007 Posts: 594 Location: St.Albert, AB
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Keuruu, Finland
Oh yeah, and this is to all of the depressed Finns on my thread. I hope this makes you smile...or dance...or think of going for Sauna...or marrying me and giving me citizenship...
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