Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Oct 14, 2004 Posts: 1203 Location: Left the cult
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Silver?
I have been looking into buying gold/silver recently, this is what I have found, but I am not an expert. It is definitely something you need to investigate rather than leap in and start buying. It seems to be better to go for coins than bars, coins are more tradeable. The problem with coins is that collectors collect them! So desirable coins trade for more than bulk price. In addition, when silver coins were used as currency, silver content varied. Coins for circulation are an alloy with copper to make them more hard wearing (or cheaper). Since silver stopped being used for currency, special "bullion" coins have been minted which are 99.99% silver, and are not intended for circulation. These though are prettied up so collectors buy them.
So...ask your coin dealer for "investment" silver coins. These will be older coins, of whatever is the cheapest price. These should be closest to bulk price.
As has been mentioned, buying PMs as a hedge against inflation assumes a stable society where there will be dealers willing to buy the coins back. Whether buying PM is the best hedge is another question. I'm not so convinced that PMs will necessarily shoot up in price in the case of an inflationary recession, and I strongly doubt that gold or silver will return as a currency to replace paper in the case of real breakdown. People no longer have any idea how to use them as a currency. Could you tell which coin was 50% silver and which 99.99%? It is reported that in Bosnia the most valuable commodity was toilet paper.
The best advice as always with investments is to have a spread portfolio. Oh, and consult some real experts _________________ It's all downhill from here
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Silver?
gt1370a wrote:
Ever heard of Ebay?
Yup, but we won't be broadband or even PPP or SLIP, we will be using CPIP. (Carrier-Pigeon-Internet-Protocol).
rfc1149 _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5715 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Silver?
One ounce silver rounds can sometimes be found at good prices. I got some for just above the spot price from here: Link
awhile back. Right now it looks like they only have a few Canadian silver dollars on special but now and then they get new stuff in. I bought them in person since I was living in Austin, but I can vouch for the company being very reputable and I would feel comfortable dealing with them by mail. They will talk with you on the phone, too.
Joined: Jan 31, 2005 Posts: 451 Location: Massachusetts
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Silver?
I have been looking into silver, too. I think the usual term in the US for what you want is "junk silver" These are run-of-the-mill old silver coins that have circulated and show signs of wear and thus have little or no value for collectors. Their value is tied to the spot price of silver. Apparently, some dealers will sell bags of old US coins by the face value of the US coins. Since their weight was proportional to their face value, face value is a proxy for weight. Bags with face value of US$1,000 sell for around US$5,500 based on their silver content. They have about 720 ounces of silver. The bag would weigh close to 50 lbs, so you may want a very sturdy backpack if you buy it from a retail dealer!
However, Bob Cousins has made me reconsider my plan to buy junk silver. I had been thinking of these coins as a means of exchange after the dollar becomes worthless, but I think that Bob is probably right that we have mostly lost the culture of using precious metals as means of exchange.
It really does seem that there will be no way to preserve much value in a full-blown financial collapse unless you have your own oil tank and friends in high places who will supply the police to protect it!
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Silver?
marko wrote:
However, Bob Cousins has made me reconsider my plan to buy junk silver. I had been thinking of these coins as a means of exchange after the dollar becomes worthless, but I think that Bob is probably right that we have mostly lost the culture of using precious metals as means of exchange.
My thinking is that the dollar will survive in the intermediate term, as will the yen, and the yuan (and possibly the Euro too, if the member countries decide not to deconfederate.) But instead of all the currencies and commodities, for purposes of exchange, being denominated in USD, they instead get denominated in gold, which, unlike the USD, is finite in supply and therefore decidedly-less the subject to the tributes, gamesmanship and outright fraud of the banksters or politicians.
Thereby, if BushCo wishes to further bankrupt America, or wishes to continue to lead, thereby further bankrupting America, the value of the USD in realtionship to gold will plummet. Similarly, if Canada wishes to reinvest its oil and mineral wealth into smart, energy-conserving infrastructure, or into its own social fabric in a general sense, its Loonie, in relation to gold, would soar.
Therefore, if an American wants to go to the store and buy a pack of gum, it'll be in US dollars. If a Canadian wants to buy a pack of gum, it'll be in Canadian dollars. And if a Canadian firm wants to import gum manufactured in the US, the firm would, through a bank or banks, convert their loonies into gold and then into US dollars. Everybody wins with this system. Except for the US, which loses its status as the keeper of the world's reserve currency.
Which is possibly exactly what should happen, since the US, it appears, has greatly abused its caretaker status.
Holding gold or silver inside America as an individual ?? Good night, and good luck!!
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject: Buying Silver in Canada.
Utopia,
KITCO (www.kitco.ca) has an office in Montreal,Quebec:
620 Cathcart,Suite 900
Montreal,Quebec H3B 1M1
Toll Free:1-800-363-7053
Fax:(514) 875-6484
KITCO's web-site does allow you to order ON-LINE also ; better call them up.
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Silver?
This is just a thought, take it how you wish.
I've read that for asset preservation purposes one should stay away from silver. The rational is, unlike gold, silver is heavily used in manufacturing. In an economic colapse, or deep recession/depression, the industrial demand for silver will fall significantly driving excess silver supply on the market thus lowering its value.
You might be better off with small pieces of gold (i.e. 1/10 Maple Leafs, etc.)
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Silver?
dbarberic wrote:
This is just a thought, take it how you wish.
I've read that for asset preservation purposes one should stay away from silver. The rational is, unlike gold, silver is heavily used in manufacturing. In an economic colapse, or deep recession/depression, the industrial demand for silver will fall significantly driving excess silver supply on the market thus lowering its value.
You might be better off with small pieces of gold (i.e. 1/10 Maple Leafs, etc.)
Industrial production (supply) of silver will also fall since it is a byproduct from copper and other mines, which would not be profitable to mine if the industrial demand is not there. Hard to say where things would end up... It's probably a good idea to hold some of each just to hedge your bets.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 7023 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Silver?
rogerhb wrote:
Has nobody heard of hyperinflation to avoid paying debts?
Has nobody heard of unemployment in a hyperinflation scenario?
Most folk’s budget is a balance between income and outflow; better be sure you are sure of an income before you bet the farm on inflation. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Silver?
Hi, I recommend you to buy 1Kg bars of silver. Silver is cheap and you don't want to waste your money on small coins, get big blocks. Different story with gold, I prefer them in coins, for example 1-2 gold coins = 1kg of silver.
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Silver?
Zentric wrote:
marko wrote:
However, Bob Cousins has made me reconsider my plan to buy junk silver. I had been thinking of these coins as a means of exchange after the dollar becomes worthless, but I think that Bob is probably right that we have mostly lost the culture of using precious metals as means of exchange.
My thinking is that the dollar will survive in the intermediate term, as will the yen, and the yuan (and possibly the Euro too, if the member countries decide not to deconfederate.) But instead of all the currencies and commodities, for purposes of exchange, being denominated in USD, they instead get denominated in gold, which, unlike the USD, is finite in supply and therefore decidedly-less the subject to the tributes, gamesmanship and outright fraud of the banksters or politicians.
Thereby, if BushCo wishes to further bankrupt America, or wishes to continue to lead, thereby further bankrupting America, the value of the USD in realtionship to gold will plummet. Similarly, if Canada wishes to reinvest its oil and mineral wealth into smart, energy-conserving infrastructure, or into its own social fabric in a general sense, its Loonie, in relation to gold, would soar.
Therefore, if an American wants to go to the store and buy a pack of gum, it'll be in US dollars. If a Canadian wants to buy a pack of gum, it'll be in Canadian dollars. And if a Canadian firm wants to import gum manufactured in the US, the firm would, through a bank or banks, convert their loonies into gold and then into US dollars. Everybody wins with this system. Except for the US, which loses its status as the keeper of the world's reserve currency.
Which is possibly exactly what should happen, since the US, it appears, has greatly abused its caretaker status.
Holding gold or silver inside America as an individual ?? Good night, and good luck!!
Do you think that gold and silver would be confiscated by govt. in the US, in an attempt to shore up the fiat currency, domestically? Would moves like this further isolate the US from the world community economically?
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:59 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Silver?
threadbear wrote:
Do you think that gold and silver would be confiscated by govt. in the US, in an attempt to shore up the fiat currency, domestically?
I think there's a good chance because America, systemically, is a debtor nation. And requires more expensive oil than just about anywhere else just to get by. But oil/gas is running low and getting expensive, and the infrastructure and institutions are decaying, and its population is dumbed down. The American economic model and living situation is vastly inappropriate for the new realities.
Either in terms of domestic savings or foreign exchange, the US dollar can no longer be seen as a safe harbor in terms of the preservation of purchasing power. With this in mind, what alternatives do foreign governments or investors have to preserve their assets going forward?
First and foremost, to the extent they can without hurting their home economies, foreign governments could seek to bypass the market entirely by prearranging to trade (i.e., barter) goods and services between themselves, thus totally circumventing inflows and outflows with the USD and the America-based sales and distribution system.
They could rely upon stock exchanges or bourses that trade commodities using foreign currencies instead of the USD (and place sanctions upon those countries out there that are determined to curb such free market expression.)
They could, as above, facilitate the convenient exchange of their home currencies with gold, to allow it (instead of USD) to be the universal medium of exchange between countries. And if the US doesn't want to go along with this system, the other countries can still use it to their full advantage amongst themselves, without US participation.
Keep in mind that since the US Fed largely controls the dollar printing presses, some construe that the Fed effectively "steals" from foreigners by irresponsibly inflating the US dollar (the de facto "world currency.") This is over and above the profits made primarily by the US banks from maintaining a "spread" when doing foreign-to-USD currency conversions, which are often required when doing international commerce.
America is weakening - economically, politically and militarily (unless, of course, you count WMDs). So as a result of this, the USD is destined to lose its prominence on the international stage. Since the US economy is all about doing things the old way, soon America will be the provider of almost nothing that the rest of the world needs, while, at the same time, America(ns) will maintain a huge appetite for foreign goods it can scarcely pay for.
Now look at America's gold. The rest of the world would value that - so considering America's national emergency, does some rich, gold-hoarding individual's desire for a new luxury yacht trump the societal need for basics such as food, clothing, warmth and shelter? There are many forms of socialism, but regardless, the socialism that America adopts will not tolerate such massive inequity - at least among its non-party members.
Or maybe I'm wrong. But, in any case, I doubt if FDR were alive today that he'd take much issue with what I'm saying.
Quote:
Would moves like this further isolate the US from the world community economically?
I guess that would mostly depend on whether we get "new deal" socialism or "national" socialism.
Joined: Oct 15, 2005 Posts: 1634 Location: Portland, Oregon
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Buying Silver?
Silver can be purchased in one ounce rounds/coins or in larger weight bars. The reason for buying the bars is that there is asmaller markup from the "spot" price. However, you need to assess what you are going to do with your silver. If you see this as an investment that you want to cash in as inflation takes over and precious metals go up in price over the next few years, you would do better to buy bars.
Silver undoubtedly will go up in the short term (the next five years). If however, you want to keep your money in something that will survive once the whole system crashes (5-15 years?), silver coins might be a better idea. People who buy in coins are generally buying for survival purposes. They believe that paper based currency will crash to next to zero and only people holding precious metals (and other reality based goods such as lands, lumber, food, etc.) will have something of worth. Survivalists belive that we will revert to a barter and precious metals based economy.
If this is the case, then it could be awfully difficult for you to go out and trade your 100 oz silver bar for something. (I'll take 400 loaves of bread, three hundred fish and that windmill over there please). Furthermore, silver bars can be counterfeited (lead in the middle) and some people may be wary of the true worth of your bar in this post-industrial collapse scenario. On the other hand, nice silver rounds with their troy ounce measurement printed in english (if you are from an english speaking country) may have measureable and useable value. Of course, you can still trade in your coins for cash pre-collapse but you will have to pay a percent decrease from the spot (up to 10 % for coins vs. up to 5% for bars) when you sell.
My recomendation is if you are buying in small amounts (up to 5,000 $), go for coins- its a good bet for post collapse and they will still be redeemable at quite a markup even if we have a soft landing. If you are spending large amounts, do a mixture of mostly bars with some coins. You can always trade in your bars for coins if you think the is really about to htf.
Furthermore, I disagree with others about the merits of gold vs. silver. I believe silver is highly undervalued as gold is worth about 60 times more than silver right now. Traditionally gold used to be worth only between 12 and 16 times the value of silver. Furthermore, silver has industrial uses in the short term and is actually more rare than gold. So good luck with your decision making.
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