Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:50 am Post subject: Re: Offshore wind to power every British home by 2020
jbeckton wrote:
...snip...
(Try getting everyone to do laundry at 3:00am).
...snip...
I though that is exactly what the major electric utilities ARE trying to do.
1. My washer has a "delayed start" feature - explain that if not for uses like the one above
2. Utilities are trying to get control of my major appliances - remotely - explain that if not for uses like the one above
I believe the utilities are already far down the road towards a "monumental Demand Side Management plan" - and accelerating. If they can turn off my washer to protect their precious coal and nuke plants thet can turn it back on when the wind picks up. Or is that something different from "demand manegement?" _________________ 100% of the electricity needed for this post was generated by ME.
<p>
<A HREF="http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen/green_virtual_gym.html">Posted from a Pedal Powered Computer</A>
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:56 am Post subject: Re: Offshore wind to power every British home by 2020
SolarDave wrote:
...
I believe the utilities are already far down the road towards a "monumental Demand Side Management plan" - and accelerating. If they can turn off my washer to protect their precious coal and nuke plants thet can turn it back on when the wind picks up. Or is that something different from "demand manegement?"
not to get too far off topic but I have this feeling that electricity production is subsidized.
If customers where paying fair market value for electricity and utility companies were making a fat profit then they would encourage the consumption of electricity. Much like walking into Starbucks the more coffee you drink the more happy the store owner should be making extra money.......so I guess the more energy you use the happier the utility company should be!
So why is it that the utility company keeps on trying to get their customers to conserve? something isn't adding up. There can be only one conclusion. Electricity production is probably subsidized through some weird government program.
am I getting paranoid or am I onto something here?
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Offshore wind to power every British home by 2020
Code:
Ahh this is what makes the energy crisis appears so deceptive. It is not the cost of energy per say but a shortage of energy that will kill the economy. Electricity is used for everything from keeping an ice cream shop open to running the slot machines at casinos. There's a "multiplication factor" with energy, it is the 5% that makes the other 95% of the economy continue working. For every dollar of electricity that gets shut down --> $20 of the economy elsewhere will also get shut down.
Energy costs are 5% of disposable household income, that is income left over after tax, housing, food and other essential needs. If this rises to 10 or 15% it will hurt the economy because i'll have less money to spend of IPods and other consumables. This will reduce consumption of goods and reduce economic growth. How much remains to be seen. The feedback into the credit and property makrets will be bad. This is why I am, in some ways, happy the credit and property markets will deflate now to lesson the blow when peak oil arrives.
The belief that energy = economic growth is a common one on these forums. Maybe you have seen a chart showing the correlation of energy use and GDP or something. However, if it were true, countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran would be the economic capitals of the world but instead the best capitalists in the world are energy staved countries like Germany and Japan.
Quote:
The greatest crisis is trying to find something that can be "scaled up": windmills and solar panels cannot do this.
Who says they can't be scaled up? What are the limiting factors? Other than short-term limitations like current silicon production or factory capacity, both of which can be scaled up in a few years if the demand was there.
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Offshore wind to power every British home by 2020
mkwin wrote:
...
The belief that energy = economic growth is a common one on these forums. Maybe you have seen a chart showing the correlation of energy use and GDP or something...
I have a chart for Germany.
green = energy
pink = GDP
blue = energy productivity
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Offshore wind to power every British home by 2020
cube wrote:
There are some people out there who truly believe a windmill can generate electricity at a cost of 4 cents/kWh (same as a coal plant without factoring "externalities")
....
windmills cost (ready for this?) about 15 cents/kWh (4X that of coal)
In Germany you get ~8,x (Euro)-ct/kWh for wind energy (on shore) and this -is- profitable, otherwise Germany wouldn't be the largest producer of wind energy...
If you rate the external cost for CO2 at 85US$ (60€) and if 1kWh produces ~ 1kg of CO2 from coal fired plants you have to add 6ct/kWh to that.
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Offshore wind to power every British home by 2020
cephalotus wrote:
cube wrote:
There are some people out there who truly believe a windmill can generate electricity at a cost of 4 cents/kWh (same as a coal plant without factoring "externalities")
....
windmills cost (ready for this?) about 15 cents/kWh (4X that of coal)
In Germany you get ~8,x (Euro)-ct/kWh for wind energy (on shore) and this -is- profitable, otherwise Germany wouldn't be the largest producer of wind energy...
If you rate the external cost for CO2 at 85US$ (60€) and if 1kWh produces ~ 1kg of CO2 from coal fired plants you have to add 6ct/kWh to that.
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Offshore wind to power every British home by 2020
mkwin wrote:
The belief that energy = economic growth is a common one on these forums. Maybe you have seen a chart showing the correlation of energy use and GDP or something. However, if it were true, countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran would be the economic capitals of the world but instead the best capitalists in the world are energy staved countries like Germany and Japan.
you are miss-stating someone else's words. but lets stay on topic please
mkwin wrote:
Who says they can't be scaled up? What are the limiting factors? Other than short-term limitations like current silicon production or factory capacity, both of which can be scaled up in a few years if the demand was there.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Offshore wind to power every British home by 2020
SolarDave wrote:
jbeckton wrote:
...snip...
(Try getting everyone to do laundry at 3:00am).
...snip...
I though that is exactly what the major electric utilities ARE trying to do.
1. My washer has a "delayed start" feature - explain that if not for uses like the one above
2. Utilities are trying to get control of my major appliances - remotely - explain that if not for uses like the one above
I believe the utilities are already far down the road towards a "monumental Demand Side Management plan" - and accelerating. If they can turn off my washer to protect their precious coal and nuke plants thet can turn it back on when the wind picks up. Or is that something different from "demand manegement?"
Trying is the key word.
They are trying, but nothing "monumental" has been achieved on any large scale.
ERCOT is considering installing "smart" meters that will charge customers the current price. This should offset some usage but how much will it cost, will people fight it, and how soon could it be implemented? _________________ Those that cannot do..... teach. Those that cannot teach......teach gym.-Jack black
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Offshore wind to power every British home by 2020
cube wrote:
So why is it that the utility company keeps on trying to get their customers to conserve? something isn't adding up. There can be only one conclusion. Electricity production is probably subsidized through some weird government program.
It's probably some combination of subsidies and fear of increased regulation/taxation if they don't agree to help demand side management. Limited peak capacity may encourage this as well, since no electricity provider I know of wants to shell out more $$$ for greater transmission capacity. _________________
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Offshore wind to power every British home by 2020
yesplease wrote:
cube wrote:
So why is it that the utility company keeps on trying to get their customers to conserve? something isn't adding up. There can be only one conclusion. Electricity production is probably subsidized through some weird government program.
It's probably some combination of subsidies and fear of increased regulation/taxation if they don't agree to help demand side management. Limited peak capacity may encourage this as well, since no electricity provider I know of wants to shell out more $$$ for greater transmission capacity.
Think about all of the Phillip Morris non-smoking jargon.
Do you really think they want you to stop smoking?
Nope, and they don't want you to conserve power either. _________________ Those that cannot do..... teach. Those that cannot teach......teach gym.-Jack black
Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: Offshore wind to power every British home by 2020
jbeckton wrote:
yesplease wrote:
cube wrote:
So why is it that the utility company keeps on trying to get their customers to conserve? something isn't adding up. There can be only one conclusion. Electricity production is probably subsidized through some weird government program.
It's probably some combination of subsidies and fear of increased regulation/taxation if they don't agree to help demand side management. Limited peak capacity may encourage this as well, since no electricity provider I know of wants to shell out more $$$ for greater transmission capacity.
Think about all of the Phillip Morris non-smoking jargon.
Do you really think they want you to stop smoking?
Nope, and they don't want you to conserve power either.
The company wins because they get more for the same service and don't need to spend money investing in infrastructure, which is especially beneficial if distributed alternatives become viable. The state and consumer are encouraged to use less for the benefit of all. Well designed policies can be win-win. _________________
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