For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA?
I notice that fuel oil is the fuel of choice for heating in th Northeast U.S., but do not understand why that is.
It seems from every perspective, natural gas is superior - cost, environment, and even maintenance.
The only other thing I can think of is infrastructure, the extension of gas mains there. But, this does not make sense to me as a rationale, as I know in Canada, natural gas mains flow east as far as Quebec, and that is just due north from the New England states. At a minimum it would only require extending this southward. And, New England is so much more populous, so the cost/benefit equation would make it feasible.
Here in Ontario, where I live, natural gas mains have been extended even though parts of our "cottage country" just south of the Canadian shield, in which a lot of just seasonal use seems to pay the capital cost.
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA
Oil can be pumped on board trucks and driven down bumpy dirt roads.
Natural gas cain't. _________________ "By the time individuals discover that remaining resources will not be adequate for the next generation, the next generation has already been born. " David Price
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3431 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA
Denny wrote:
I notice that fuel oil is the fuel of choice for heating in th Northeast U.S., but do not understand why that is.
It seems from every perspective, natural gas is superior - cost, environment, and even maintenance.
The only other thing I can think of is infrastructure, the extension of gas mains there. But, this does not make sense to me as a rationale, as I know in Canada, natural gas mains flow east as far as Quebec, and that is just due north from the New England states. At a minimum it would only require extending this southward. And, New England is so much more populous, so the cost/benefit equation would make it feasible.
Here in Ontario, where I live, natural gas mains have been extended even though parts of our "cottage country" just south of the Canadian shield, in which a lot of just seasonal use seems to pay the capital cost.
You have to keep something in mind when talking about housing in the North East USA, much of it was built before or shortly after World War II when Natural Gas was something you could only get in the city. The whole infrastructure was built on the cheap fuel oil assumption, everyone had a tank in or next to their house. Even now as Natural Gas has spread far and wide it is a considerable expense to rip out an oil burning system and install a natural gas system in its place. Sure if you are installing central air or something similer where you are already pulling the old system out then it makes sense, provided your house already has a natural gas line for other appliances. Otherwise you have to get a line trenched to your house from the main, have gas pipes installed, have a new furnace installed.....all that costs a lot of money. On the other hand if you have an oil furnace with its in house infra structure, no in house gas appliances and your oil furnace goes out of comission it is a lot cheaper to just put a new oil furnace in its place. That's what my dad did 15 years ago in Michigan, extending a gas line to the house would have costs over $8,000.00 back then and would certainly be more now. _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Joined: Sep 16, 2004 Posts: 4272 Location: Southwest WI
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA
Lack of pipes.
Aren't natural gas furnaces more efficient? Mine is an older Trane and uses PVC for the exhaust, so not much heat is leaving the house.
The problem with natural gas is the Canadians want to use it to heat up their oil sands so they can send the oil back to us Americans so we can drive to our mailboxes
Silly Canadians. _________________ "Oil is going up because we use too much oil, and the capacity to replace reserves is dwindling"
-President Bush 11/07/07
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA
I think a lot of people in the Northeast went from coal to oil heat. There are still enormous old cast iron heaters that were converted to burn oil in a lot of basements. They are terrible energy pigs, but they keep working. There is an emergency heating oil supply in Rhode Island I think.
It is really hurting people financially around here. To fill a 275 gallon tank now costs around $1000. Most people are buying oil at $3.24 a gallon now. The Liheap funds are down, so there will be a lot of people running out of oil soon. I watched people in my neighborhood buying a five gallon container of off road diesel to put it into their oil tanks last winter. That lasts less than a day with a typical burner that uses about .8 of a gallon per hour. _________________ Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
Joined: Apr 06, 2006 Posts: 2943 Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA
Revi wrote:
It is really hurting people financially around here. To fill a 275 gallon tank now costs around $1000. Most people are buying oil at $3.24 a gallon now. The Liheap funds are down, so there will be a lot of people running out of oil soon. I watched people in my neighborhood buying a five gallon container of off road diesel to put it into their oil tanks last winter. That lasts less than a day with a typical burner that uses about .8 of a gallon per hour.
Burning diesel, you mean? Or the heating oil - how long's that $1K fillup good for? _________________ Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
I'm just gonna find a cash machine.
Joined: Sep 04, 2005 Posts: 362 Location: central MA, USA
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA
killJOY wrote:
Oil can be pumped on board trucks and driven down bumpy dirt roads.
Not to mention, it's prohibitively hard & expensive to lay natural gas lines out here, what with all the ledge & boulders. In most of the Midwest, digging just means moving earth and maybe clay. Not so easy here.
The alternative to heating oil would be to have propane trucked in. 1) There are far more companies offering heating oil here than propane, and 2) I prefer having an oil tank in a corner of the basement to having a big propane tank in the yard.
Joined: Sep 04, 2005 Posts: 362 Location: central MA, USA
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA
Tanada wrote:
Even now as Natural Gas has spread far and wide it is a considerable expense to rip out an oil burning system and install a natural gas system in its place. Sure if you are installing central air or something similer where you are already pulling the old system out then it makes sense, provided your house already has a natural gas line for other appliances. Otherwise you have to get a line trenched to your house from the main, have gas pipes installed, have a new furnace installed.....all that costs a lot of money.
Much of New England doesn't have a gas main handy at the street to tap into. For example, the town I live in, in central Massachusetts, has only a few thousand residents, spread out over quite a distance. There's no way that services like sewer or gas will ever be offered to any portion of the town except perhaps for a very small downtown core.
Even if it were as easy to trench as in the Midwest, there wouldn't enough people to serve, to make it profitable.
Of course, if it were that easy to trench, perhaps it wouldn't be such a small town any more. Which is one of the things I like about living here, so I guess I'll take that trade-off.
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3431 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: Re: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA
TheDude wrote:
Revi wrote:
It is really hurting people financially around here. To fill a 275 gallon tank now costs around $1000. Most people are buying oil at $3.24 a gallon now. The Liheap funds are down, so there will be a lot of people running out of oil soon. I watched people in my neighborhood buying a five gallon container of off road diesel to put it into their oil tanks last winter. That lasts less than a day with a typical burner that uses about .8 of a gallon per hour.
Burning diesel, you mean? Or the heating oil - how long's that $1K fillup good for?
Can't speak for New England but my dad's oil furnace isn't picky, it will burn fuel oil, Deisel, or Kerosene. I have wondered about buying him some bio-diesel, with the subsidies it might be cheaper than Fuel Oil #2 and its garunteed to be lower in sulfur. _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA
Did the government tax credit program in the early 1980's for oil to gas conversion include the U.S.A? That was when we converted and it ended up costing me just $900 out of my own pocket. That was for a brand new furnace too. Mind you I also had to pay income tax on about $1200, but I was in a low tax bracket back then.
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3431 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA
Denny wrote:
Did the government tax credit program in the early 1980's for oil to gas conversion include the U.S.A? That was when we converted and it ended up costing me just $900 out of my own pocket. That was for a brand new furnace too. Mind you I also had to pay income tax on about $1200, but I was in a low tax bracket back then.
Never heard of it NAFTA doesn't go THAT far....yet! _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA
Tanada wrote:
Denny wrote:
Did the government tax credit program in the early 1980's for oil to gas conversion include the U.S.A? That was when we converted and it ended up costing me just $900 out of my own pocket. That was for a brand new furnace too. Mind you I also had to pay income tax on about $1200, but I was in a low tax bracket back then.
Never heard of it NAFTA doesn't go THAT far....yet!
But, I would have thought that the U.S. would be even more gung ho for this type of thing, even back then, to reduce dependence on mid-east oil. It seems like every President since Nixon has stated that need.
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA
TheDude wrote:
Revi wrote:
It is really hurting people financially around here. To fill a 275 gallon tank now costs around $1000. Most people are buying oil at $3.24 a gallon now. The Liheap funds are down, so there will be a lot of people running out of oil soon. I watched people in my neighborhood buying a five gallon container of off road diesel to put it into their oil tanks last winter. That lasts less than a day with a typical burner that uses about .8 of a gallon per hour.
Burning diesel, you mean? Or the heating oil - how long's that $1K fillup good for?
A tank will last about 45 days at 6 gallons a day, but only about a month if it's really cold. It's been really cold lately. If you have an outside tank you have to use kerosene and that costs about 50 cents per gallon more. It's a cruel Dickensian world here in Maine. It costs the average household 20 bucks a day just to keep the heat on. The average Liheap benefit is around $579, so that only pays for a month's worth of heat. Real serious winter lasts for at least 3 months around here. We have 2 feet of snow on the ground right now and the temp is around 10 farenheit. It's going to be like this until March. Without heat you die.
Joined: Aug 23, 2007 Posts: 52 Location: SE Michigan
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: Why is oil space heating so popular in the Northeast USA
FoolYap wrote:
killJOY wrote:
Oil can be pumped on board trucks and driven down bumpy dirt roads.
Not to mention, it's prohibitively hard & expensive to lay natural gas lines out here, what with all the ledge & boulders. In most of the Midwest, digging just means moving earth and maybe clay. Not so easy here.
The alternative to heating oil would be to have propane trucked in. 1) There are far more companies offering heating oil here than propane, and 2) I prefer having an oil tank in a corner of the basement to having a big propane tank in the yard.
--Steve
I drove through the NE this summer and thought about this as I walked and drove over boulders, rocks and ledges through mountainous terrain. It is totally impractical to lay gas pipe through terrain like this IMHO. Efficient wood burning to heat smaller areas within the home may be the way to go in this region in the future.
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NAFTA doesn't go THAT far....yet!
