Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: "End Times" Christian perspective vs. Permacul
A lot of folks with conservative religious beliefs are regulars at health food stores and in the organic food movement. Mistrust of government (FDA) is rampant. Permaculture is about good stewardship. Your body is a temple... I'd try aproaching from these angles...
As to rapture, I always agree with them but tell them I think the Rapture's still a few years out. If they ask why, respond that there are too many predicted events that haven't come to pass yet. Brush up a bit and you'll do fine. That way you're not arguing with them. Try to remember that the post-peak collapse/dieoff scenario looks surprisingly similar to tribulation/end-times thinking. It's sad that so many atheist types mock those beliefs while predicting so similar an outcome for humanity! Missing the irony recognition gene, I suppose!
I often mourn the fact that everyone's need to be so strident about their beliefs keeps us from finding the rather vast common ground we humans share. Good luck getting the word out! _________________ Oil - it's what's for dinner.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 7002 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: "End Times" Christian perspective vs. Permacul
Not that there aren't good and bad folks professing every faith, but to me, in a Christian perspective this is all about:
No one will know the day,
and
He provides for those that provide for themselves.
I happen to think cheap energy has provided so many slaves that we here may envision ourselves going through a tribulation but most of us here ain’t seen (or imagined) nothing yet.
Still, no help I know... _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5695 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: "End Times" Christian perspective vs. Permacul
Pixie wrote:
Just out of curiosity, are you interested in talking to the sinners who will be left behind, or the spiritually pure, who will presumably be leaving us soon?
I'm interested in helping my community here on earth become less dependent on industrial infrastructure, like I said. I have altruistic and selfish motivations for doing so. I don't know how to distinguish between "sinners" and "spiritually pure" people, I don't think it's my job to do so, and my own beliefs don't include the Rapture. I'm not sure how you intended your question to come across and am hesitant to make any assumptions about it. I am a Buddhist. Do you think it's less valuable to have a person who's expecting the Rapture living harmoniously with nature than a person who's an atheist?
Thanks again all, this is interesting and helpful. _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Last edited by Shannymara on Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5695 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: "End Times" Christian perspective vs. Permacul
fireplaceguy wrote:
A lot of folks with conservative religious beliefs are regulars at health food stores and in the organic food movement.
Yep, my own town of 17,000, not near any big cities, has 2 good health food stores, plenty of organic food available, and various holistic health care practitioners. As you said, there is plenty of common ground. _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
In terms of preparation, the only way I'll be prepared is by trusting in Christ as my Saviour and walking close to Him.
For the Christians who believe it'll happen before the final seven year tribulation period, which will see the rise of the Antichrist and the events del2les explained earlier, they too will be faced with the end times events as they unfold.
Pops, just to respond to what you said there. The reason I'm a Christian, is because if we're all honest, we know there is no one who is righteous (Romans 3:10), that's why I need Christ as my Saviour when I stand before God in judgment. He paid the penalty for my sins.
Joined: Nov 09, 2004 Posts: 1250 Location: Big Rock Candy Mountain
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: "End Times" Christian perspective vs. Permacul
"Rome will never fall. God will send legions of angels to defend Rome." Christian authorities to the people of Rome. 400 AD (Gibbon)
What I say to Xtians who quote: "God will protect me."
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: "End Times" Christian perspective vs. Permacul
oowolf wrote:
"Rome will never fall. God will send legions of angels to defend Rome." Christian authorities to the people of Rome. 400 AD (Gibbon)
What I say to Xtians who quote: "God will protect me."
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1263 Location: Off with the Fey Folk
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: "End Times" Christian perspective vs. Permacul
Shannymara wrote:
This thread was inspired by this post. I live in an area where the majority of people are Southern Baptists and the Rapture is expected any time now. This belief system is prevalent enough here that when engaging in conversation with strangers it's simply assumed everyone subscribes to it.
I am NOT interested in arguing about the validity of this belief system in this thread. What I AM interested in is how to interest people who believe the Rapture is coming in the near future in learning about ways to become less dependent on industrial infrastructure, which I believe is going to collapse soon and is destroying the planet in the meantime. My own method of reducing my dependence on industrial civilization is Permaculture, and I would like to get a Permaculture education center going here. But there are two issues I've been unable to resolve. One is the Rapture thing - if a person is expecting the Rapture, why would they bother investing time and energy in learning a new way of life designed for the long term on Earth? The second is the dominion concept, but that one is actually less of a hurdle and a far less immediate concern.
So: Are there any Christians here who can help me out? I would appreciate your insights and advice very much. Thanks in advance!
Hi Shanny
Interesting idea. As a Pagan I have a lot of sympathy with the idea of Christ as the sacrificed & reborn god of fertility, also, the Lord of the dead and the resurrection (which is only re-incarnation by another name). He exists by many other names, was called Osiris by the Egyptians & Hercules by the Greeks, for example.
With regard to the Christian apocolypse itself I have been on a personal quest for some years to try & fit this into my own belief system & I am begining to think there might be some validity in it. Certainly nothing like our current situation has ever happened before. But more meditation is needed, before I come to a definite understanding.
The 'Rapture' is, alas, denied to me but I think the company up there might be rather dull, anyhow (grin).
Where we would fit Permaculture into this whole thing is difficult but you could try the angle that the end of the whole 'revelations' thing, the 'New Jeruslaem' arose from the shattered Earth & we all made the world a better place again. For me, that's a reasonable interpretation of John's prophesy. It would certainly give a lot of God-fearing people cause to think about their current lifestyles and what the true nature of John's 'Beast' might be...
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5695 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: "End Times" Christian perspective vs. Permacul
This is great, you guys and gals are giving me plenty of good ideas and things to research that will help me relate to and understand people better. I don't know why I didn't think to ask this here months ago; I've been thinking about it for a long time! Thanks again. _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Joined: Sep 16, 2007 Posts: 1458 Location: Oklahoma City, USA
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: "End Times" Christian perspective vs. Permacul
As a Christian, I don't see a conflict. Matthew 24:36-39 says:
Quote:
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
Since we don't know when he's coming back, we should continue to do our work, take care of what he's given us: our land and family. I'm a big supporter of permaculture, because it makes the most sense to me as far as protecting and improving the land God has given me.
As Jesus says a little later (Matthew 24:45-51):
Quote:
Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
We've been given stewardship over the earth as in Jesus' example above. I doubt God is happy with the way his property has been treated, or at the treatment of our fellow servants. _________________ Conservation is conservative
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change. -- Charles Darwin
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: "End Times" Christian perspective vs. Permacul
I am promising in advance to stay totally serious on this post.
Good luck with this Shannymara, it is hard to keep people from getting diverted from working together and locked into scoring points for their own belief system or against someone else's. Ever notice any of that going on here but from a science or philosophy vantage point?
If I were to try something like this I would make it like a public sort of venture sponsored or at least condoned by the parks department or city hall of your town. This way it will be perceived as clearly public space and may allow people to be comfortable to participate regardless of their faith or personal beliefs. Another way might be to work with various faith or common interest groups to each have their own program but to link them to share information, resources and labor, and yields.
The less that clear cut life support or quality of life issues appear likely to the people in your area, the harder your job will be. People are exquisitely different and incompatible until they get hungry or cold, or really concerned about their loved ones and decide it's time to work together in a way to make a difference in the interim, the here and now, until such time as their faith or belief pulls them elsewhere. You have an input to exploit, when Americans get challenged they pull together and make it happen, you can absolutely bank on it like the sun coming up in the morning.
Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 1250 Location: Just the right place
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: "End Times" Christian perspective vs. Permacul
Shannymara wrote:
This thread was inspired by this post. I live in an area where the majority of people are Southern Baptists and the Rapture is expected any time now. This belief system is prevalent enough here that when engaging in conversation with strangers it's simply assumed everyone subscribes to it.
I am NOT interested in arguing about the validity of this belief system in this thread. What I AM interested in is how to interest people who believe the Rapture is coming in the near future in learning about ways to become less dependent on industrial infrastructure, which I believe is going to collapse soon and is destroying the planet in the meantime. My own method of reducing my dependence on industrial civilization is Permaculture, and I would like to get a Permaculture education center going here. But there are two issues I've been unable to resolve. One is the Rapture thing - if a person is expecting the Rapture, why would they bother investing time and energy in learning a new way of life designed for the long term on Earth? The second is the dominion concept, but that one is actually less of a hurdle and a far less immediate concern.
So: Are there any Christians here who can help me out? I would appreciate your insights and advice very much. Thanks in advance!
The Bible is not silent on issues such as this:
Isa 5:8 Woe to those who join house to house, who add field to field, until there is no more room, and you are made to dwell alone in the midst of the land.
Isa 5:9 The LORD of hosts has sworn in my hearing: "Surely many houses shall be desolate, large and beautiful houses, without inhabitant.
Isa 5:10 For ten acres of vineyard shall yield but one bath, and a homer of seed shall yield but an ephah."
This refers to issues of sustainability. And also gives clear instruction on caring for the land.
Lev 25:3-8 For six years you shall sow your field, and for six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its fruits, (4) but in the seventh year there shall be a Sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a Sabbath to the LORD. You shall not sow your field or prune your vineyard. (5) You shall not reap what grows of itself in your harvest, or gather the grapes of your undressed vine. It shall be a year of solemn rest for the land. (6) The Sabbath of the land shall provide food for you, for yourself and for your male and female slaves and for your hired servant and the sojourner who lives with you, (7) and for your cattle and for the wild animals that are in your land: all its yield shall be for food. (8. "You shall count seven weeks of years, seven times seven years, so that the time of the seven weeks of years shall give you forty-nine years.
As a matter of fact, the Tower of Babel in which God scattered the people was an attempt to gather all the peoples under one leadership into one location in rebellion against God, when God specifically told them to scatter over the earth.
read Revelation 18 to discover God's final judgement on Industrial Civ. which is in a sense judgement but what is really meant is "mystery Babylon" is in violation of God's universal law and is unsustainable.
I happen to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, but it is not really proveable scripturally.
Joined: Aug 27, 2004 Posts: 163 Location: missouri
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: "End Times" Christian perspective vs. Permacul
I just finished reading "Serve God, Save the Earth" which was written by an Evangelical doctor, and he speaks of good stewardship of the earth, with lots of scripture to back him up. That might be a good resource to use. He speaks briefly of the PO problem in there too.
I am a Christian but don't pay much attention to the rapture because I think it's sinful to trash the earth and then expect God to save us from our mess. It's almost like they are trying to manipulate God. Since we can't know the day or hour, we are expected to be ready always. I guess I'm a Jimmy Carter Christian, though anabaptist, not baptist, but I lived in the Bible belt for years and know what you're going thru.
Hey, here's a scary thought. What if the rapture has already happened? There will be a lot of surprises, come judgement day.
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